Speaking With Confidence

Why Interaction Is the Secret Weapon for Powerful Public Speaking and Teaching with Ivan Wanis-Ruiz

• Tim Newman • Season 1 • Episode 102

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Have you ever wondered why so many presentations and conversations end up sounding boring, or why teaching communication skills seems stuck in outdated paradigms? On this episode of Speaking with Confidence, we dive into exactly that—and explore what it takes not only to end boring communication, but to build genuine connection in every interaction.

This week, I'm excited to introduce my guest, Ivan Wanis-Ruiz. Ivan is on a mission to rid the world of boring, whether it's in public speaking, storytelling, or everyday conversations. He's a professional speaker, educator, emcee, and yes—salsa dancer—with a knack for bringing energy and engagement to any room. Ivan brings unique insights from his experience in dance, improv, and hosting live events, showing us how these seemingly unrelated disciplines offer strategies and inspiration for great communication.

We kicked off the episode swapping stories about Ivan’s journey from a bored newcomer taking dance classes to becoming a full-on salsa teacher, and how dance became his live laboratory for educational techniques. We explored the key elements of truly effective communication training—getting people actively involved, letting students speak in every session, and making exercises practical and applicable. Ivan described the importance of aligning teaching approach with the skills being taught, urging educators to break free from the “lecture then speak once at the end” model.

Here’s what we covered in this episode:

  • How Ivan’s dance teaching doubled as a testing ground for interactive communication techniques
  • The impact of engaging introductions and ditching the boring bio in speaking and events
  • Why emotion in storytelling doesn’t have to mean trauma—how humor and uncertainty are just as powerful
  • Overcoming awkward networking through strategic self-disclosure and volunteering
  • Strategies for introverts to connect without burnout
  • Why communication skills are now the real competitive advantage in a world of abundant knowledge
  • Sugata Mitra’s revolutionary approach to education and learning through challenges and collaboration
  • How to create engaging workshops with open-ended tasks, timed constraints, and group deliverables
  • Why storytelling works best when it’s focused on problems, uncertainty, and emotional ups and downs
  • How to leverage AI for brainstorming and developing memorable personal pitches using literary devices like tricolon and anaphora

If you’re ready to break old habits, boost your confidence, and make sure you’re truly engaging your audience—whether it’s on stage, at work, or in any conversation—this episode is packed with practical advice, stories, and straight talk you can use right now.

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to check out the free ebook and course at speakwithconfidencepodcast.com, and let us know how these strategies help you show up with confidence wherever you speak.

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Tim Newman:

Welcome back to Speaking with Confidence, a podcast that helps you build the soft skills that lead to real results. Communication, storytelling, public speaking, and showing up with confidence in every conversation that counts. I'm Tim Newman, a recovering college professor, turn communication coach, and I'm thrilled to guide you on your journey to becoming a powerful communicator. Today's guest is Yvonne Juanis Ruiz. Yvonne is trying to get rid of the word of boring, so we're not doing any boring intros. Ivan, welcome to speaking with confidence, buddy.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

Tim, it is so I'm so so happy to be here, my friend. And uh it just made me laugh. I love it. Yeah. No intros because it's one of the things I talk about is yeah, you know, doing intros, no one really cares.

Tim Newman:

Exactly. Uh but before we really get into it, you you do something that is intriguing to me. Okay. Okay. You're a salsa dancer. You're a professional salsa dancer. And it that's not that's not me at all. Tell me how that happened and what that's like, and and and give us some detail on that, but well, you know what's funny?

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

I I'll tell you all about it. And one of the interesting things is I ended up using teaching dancing as a testing ground for ideas on communication and and education and learning. So what happened was, and by the way, you know what the funny thing is, we're talking about intros. Every time I do a conference, I'm speaking, doing a keynote or whatever, they're like, Yvonne is this and this, and here's all my accolades, and da-da-da-da-da. Dead silence. Then he's like, and when he's not doing that, he's a professional salsa dancer. And everyone's like, ooh, the only thing people react to. So what ended up happening was I basically I got this sales gig in a rural area, and I was I'm a city boy through and through. And I had disposable income. I was out of un freshly out of university, but no friends. I'd never lived in this place before. I was super bored. So I just started taking dance classes as a way to like do something in my evenings. Okay. And very quickly, I got really into partner dancing because it was like honestly, it's just a way to meet girls. Then the ironic part is the irony of it is I got so into dancing that I had no time for meeting women. There you go. And I still remember, you know, I to this day, I'm I I'll be dancing because I go to like social dancing all the time. And someone will try and have a conversation. And in my head, I'm like, yo, man, I'm just here to dance. Like, I don't, I don't, I don't want to do all this.

Tim Newman:

I I talk for a living. I do all that. I just want to be here and have a good time. I just want to dance, baby.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

I just want to dance. So, and the funny part was, you know, maybe for about 15 years I've been teaching dancing. I used to do it as a full-time job. Now it's more just like my fun little side gig. I do it once a week, you know? And how often I would have an idea about how can I make this more interactive? How can I make this more engaging? Whatever ideas I had. Well, I'm teaching dancing tomorrow night, let's try it out. But instead of talking about, you know, like some new pipeline or reviewing financial statements, I'd be talking about, you know, the sidestep or where to put your weight or how to do this spin. But I was doing the same things in those salsa classes as I was doing in my training workshops. Okay. So that when I came into the training workshop, I had already practiced how to do it.

Tim Newman:

Right.

unknown:

Yeah.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

And it ended being this this amazing testing ground that to this day I think about, you know, hmm, how could I do this in a dance class? Ooh, maybe like this. That's how I'm going to do it in the boardroom tomorrow.

unknown:

Yeah.

Tim Newman:

And I'm glad you kind of went down that route. I I I didn't re I didn't expect that, but I'm glad that you did. Because there's something that you and I really have in common, and and that is we love to teach.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

I thought you were gonna say we're both uh 10 out of 10 good looking.

Tim Newman:

Well, uh, we know that's not true. We we uh I I'm like a nine-nine. I I'm almost there. You know, I I I told you I I I got the voice for radio and a and a face for public, I mean uh a voice for radio and a face for for uh silent movies. Um, you know, I can't have this this pretty mug on camera all the time, but you know, no man, it's distracting. It is. But we love teaching, right? That's what we do. Love it. That that that that that's where where we shine.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

Um actually, you know what, Tim, before you go on, I can I just you I haven't I'm gonna be real with you, just a moment of uh honesty here is for the last year and a half, two years, I've been so busy doing speaking that I have actually stopped teaching dancing. And man, do I miss it? Yeah, I love teaching, I love doing workshops, but there is a part of my soul that loves to just teach for the fun of teaching, and it's something I just can't stop doing. And when you said that, it made me think of like, man, I actually really miss teaching dancing. I need to get back into it because it was just even making it's no money, it's just pure like a need. I just have to do it, you know. It feeds the soul, yeah. It really does, it really does. It I and it sounds a little cheesy to say, you know, but uh I I think about it all the time. Last year, so I'm like, man, I just want to get in front of a group of people and show them how to do like an inside turn.

Tim Newman:

Hey, what whatever it is, man. What and that's that's the that's the key though, right? I mean, because if and and I just think back to you know a few years ago when when I was so engrossed in work that there was no fun. I was still I was teaching and I enjoyed it, and it's great, but I mean it was just there there was that something missing.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

Yeah.

Tim Newman:

And and so, you know, you we you've got to do those things that that uplift you, that feed your soul, that that that that really gets you going. Um, that that's outside of our our normal everyday work life, work life, right? And yeah, that's what it is. That that's what keeps us fresh, that's what keeps us sharp, that's what keeps us strong, and and moving towards our why, whatever that why is for each of us in whatever it is that we do.

unknown:

Yeah.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

You know what else is is like that for me is you know, as you saw, we talked about this offline is I MC events. Yes. So I'm that guy that when you come into the stadium is like, ladies and gentlemen, please rise for the national anthem. Like I do that kind of stuff. And there's again, there's not a lot of money in hosting and mceing, but man, do I spend so much time trying to find gigs to host an MC. So if anybody's listening and you need an MC, let me know. Because it's just another one of these things that feeds my soul. I don't know what it is. When I'm at an event or a concert, I see a stage, I see someone doing an introduction, and I have to like stop myself. I can't enjoy it because I'm like, you're doing a discredit to who you're introducing right now. Yeah. Oh, you're doing a discredit to the crowd right now. I could I've actually done it where I've gone up to be like, I'm just wondering. Just like imagine you're at a concert. Somebody's like, excuse me, can I get on the mic real quick? You can imagine their responses, but I just can't help myself because it feeds me. And I love getting on stage. I love getting a crowd hyped. I love that that idea of like, you know, making people so excited. And here's one of the things I always say most people will host an event and the way and they'll ask people to be excited. Make some noise. Come on, you can do better than that. Make some noise. And it's always forced and contrived. Yes. Instead, give them a reason to reason. Yes. And I love doing things like that. I love getting, you know, I'll go into the audience and I'll jump into the audience. I'll get someone on stage and get them to do something, and people will lose their minds. But that's the fun. Exactly. Yeah.

Tim Newman:

And and and you know, we're we're gonna get into all those types of things about engagement and yes the things that we're doing wrong. But before we get into things we're doing wrong, what are we from an education perspective? And this is gonna be a short list, but what are we doing right in terms of teaching people communication skills? Because we we are doing some things right. It's not a lot, but we are doing some. What are we doing right?

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

Well, let me let me give you, I'm gonna give you my opinion. And then Tim, I'd love to hear like what your experience was. Because first thing you said in education, I just thought about a friend of mine who finished the master's degree and she showed me some of the presentations her teacher did, and I was like, this guy should be fire. I don't care what his education is, I don't care how knowledgeable he is in this subject. She's like, Yeah, I don't remember anything from the course. And so many people say, like, yeah, I don't remember anything from it. And like it viscerally upsets me. Like it's just I ended up going on a huge rant, and I was like, Oh my god, I'm so sorry. I'm sweating because I got so upset. I've never met this person, I just saw this slide deck and instantly was angry because I get so I take it so personally. Here's what I think some people are doing right. All right, there are certain educators, um, Sugata Mitra, for example, and we can talk about Sugata. He's he had probably the most popular TED talk of all time, and he's been a big um advocate for teaching in an entirely new way. And there are certain people that are doing teaching in this new way, but it's hard to break out of old paradigms. Yes. The truth is that if you are doing a class teaching communication, you have to do what you're teaching. So I have there are some teachers that are saying, okay, instead of, you know, we're gonna do this 12-month course and you're gonna speak at the end of the 12 months, you're speaking in every single class. Yes. Every single class, everyone is speaking. There's teachers out there, some of them, and I've worked with a few of them, and I'm always surprised when this happens, when they do all when they're they say, like, hey, the students are gonna do all the talking. I'm teaching public speaking, I'm gonna talk for like 20 minutes, and then they're gonna like work for the next three hours. That's stuff that is going well. Yeah, and we just need to do more of that.

Tim Newman:

The only way to get better at doing something is do it.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

Yeah, you can't learn. I always joke, listen, you can't learn how to change like an alternator by watching YouTube videos. Right. I tried and I had to call a tow truck. You know what I mean? You just it's like you can't, it's not the same, it's never the same.

unknown:

Right.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

What do you think is going well, Tim? Like, what do you think? When you left academia and you make the joke, you're a recovering professor because of the frustration you probably experience, you know. That the so what do you think they're doing right?

Tim Newman:

Well, I not not much, but yeah, but it's it's the whole idea that they've acknowledged that this is important. Yeah. We don't know we don't know how to solve it yet. But we've acknowledged that it's so important that our students get this. Um and you know, I I I think that I don't think that we've and I g this isn't the the right part, we haven't figured out how how to how to do it right yet because again, it's breaking out of the old paradigm. Right? It's the solution. I can tell you what the solution is not. The solution is not one three credit one hundred level communications course. That is not the solution. No, and every institution in the United States, it's probably this way in Canada, it it's a requirement that you take a huh human communication, speech communication, yeah, whatever whatever they want to call it, hundred level, you take it your first semester of your freshman year, and that's that.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

And it's a BS class that everyone thinks about. It's just a BS class. Oh, it's okay. I'm gonna talk about like my favorite color or some BS like that. Yeah, absolutely. And I actually Oh, sorry, go ahead. You can make sure then I'll jump in.

Tim Newman:

Well, what what I what I did, and maybe it's not right, maybe it is, I I don't know, is I forced my students to go out and actually talk to professionals. Go out. We're not sitting we're not sitting in the class every day. You're gonna go out and you're gonna introduce yourself and network it with an with a professional and actually have conversations with it, with them, and then you're gonna come back and report on it and give presentations on it. Um that that the reason for that was two uh twofold, right? Number one to network. That's more than twofold, but it's one step, step, step, step, you're a talker, not a mathematician. Two steps, step, step, step, step, right? And when you're networking, you're practicing research skills on on uh researchers who you're gonna talk to. You're practicing actually talking to them, having having an adult professional conversation. Yeah, right, and then you're practicing coming back and synthesizing that information, putting it into a uh some form of uh uh presentation, speech, discussion type format, and then sharing that information and being able to discuss it. You know, so you we're we're combining a number of different levels here, and the the only way that works is if you're open to going out and talking to those people.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

That's interesting. That's a very cool making it more practical by getting people to go out and do it in the real world, I think is a fantastic idea. One other thing that I will comment on is what's that gives me hope. I work with about five or six universities across North America, and those are at every one of those universities, and it's usually at the MBA level, but at any master's level, I work with a couple of engineers and stuff too. They have always kind of recognized that this is something that both students are lacking and they don't have the right skill set for. And, you know, hey, yay to me. That's why they call me. And so, for example, you know, I I take I take uh hope in the fact that, you know, between from University of Texas to the University of Australia to the University of Toronto and anything in between, there's a lot of places that are saying, Yvonne, what's it gonna take for us to teach these people better communication skills? Because, and Tim, this is one of the things I always talk about. And I was just literally today, I was working, I was uh doing a session for a mortgage company, and I I asked them this question. I said, Listen, what are you gonna tell me that I can't find out for myself in like a minute in a Google search?

unknown:

Right.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

Also, do you think AI is gonna automate more or less of your job in 10 years? And it's more, it's more so if your knowledge is no longer valuable and your technical expertise is no longer valuable, why you? What do you actually bring to the table? And I posit that the competitive advantage of the future is not knowledge or technical expertise, it's gonna be in the way you communicate and deliver that knowledge and expertise. In other words, it's gonna be your communication skills because as much as we might like to pretend, at the end of the day, we are social creatures. We follow leaders, we listen to people, we decide whether or not to trust someone. So if you have the ability, you know, think about, and I always talk about this, Tim. Think about people, forget like CEOs, forget all those people, forget like politicians. Nobody cares about that. Let's talk about really persuasive people. People, let's talk about the macho man Randy Savage.

Tim Newman:

I love this. Go, yeah, go keep it.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

Let's talk about like cult leaders. Who is more persuasive? Cult leaders. Yeah, yeah. Think about let's talk about Bernie. Uh, what's his name? Uh oh gosh, now I'm blanking. The Bernie Madoff? Bernie Madoff, yeah, yeah. Yeah, the Ponzi scheme. Ponzi scheme guy. Those are persuasive people. Let's learn from them because think about this. Bernie Madoff took a bunch of people who are good at making money and convinced them that he was better at it, even though he had none. Right. Right? A cult leader makes you give up everything you own based on nothing. Yes. A professional wrestler, forget about like some person's like, come on, everybody, CEO, let's get hyped. All these like forced applauses during an Apple keynote.

Tim Newman:

Right.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

No dis Apple, you guys are okay with your speaking, call me. For all the Apple employees listening, I know the thousands of you, just call me, trust me, I can help. But like, think about a professional wrestler, how they get people absolutely nuts. Yes. And what are they? A man, a woman with a microphone in a stage, and nothing else.

Tim Newman:

Yep.

unknown:

Right.

Tim Newman:

And everybody knows it's fake. Everybody, everybody already knows.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

But you can't help but fall in love with the energy of certain people. And there's the thing it's not just about energy, or we can use the term energy to describe logical processes that they're actually doing to elicit emotional responses. Right. And by emotion, I don't mean happy or sadness. I mean adrenaline.

Tim Newman:

Adrenaline.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

Because that induces emotional, I mean dopamine release. And we can actually identify what they're doing and translate it into physical tactics. And that's kind of, you know, that's where my niche is. That's why I get all worked up when I talk about these things. Because once you realize this, you're like, oh my gosh. And then you start seeing it everywhere. And then you start figuring out how you could start your own cult.

Tim Newman:

Exactly. That's what I need. The the Tim cult. So let me follow up on something you just said. Yeah. You said the emotional reaction, right? Yeah. And I was having this conversation literally two hours ago. Okay. And we were talking about I'm I'm working, I'm I'm just working on telling stories, right? I'm just doing that because that's what we do. And my wife was with me and we were talking about, she says, Well, you're you're not getting deep enough. I said, Well, first off, here's the thing you have to understand. Number one, I think there's way too many deep, uh emotional, dark stories. Uh that's not who I am. You know that's not who I am. I'm I'm a I'm a happy, we're gonna joke, we're gonna have fun. Learn from learn from the mistakes stories, the the the funny things that we do that that lead us to say, looking back and say, wow, that's what I really did. Don't do that again, type type of things. And and so when we talk about emotion, okay, why do we go to the sad trauma emotion as opposed to the happy, let's have some fun, learn from that emotion.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

Yeah, you know, there's there's a couple of things I want to say about that. And you make a couple of really interesting points, Tim, is that people feel like unless you cry at the end of the story, it's not a good story. And it's like it's always got to be about trauma and emotion, and because I feel like people use that as the only source they can when they think about something that is emotional. We always think about drama and crying. That's what we think of is emotional, right? We don't think emotional as like like what a stand-up comic does, but that is very emotional.

Tim Newman:

That is emotional, right?

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

Yeah, and so there is a societal kind of influence that, like, oh, this is emotional. But there's another aspect to storytelling that I want to touch on real quick. Have you ever heard of the moth?

Tim Newman:

The moth, no.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

The moth for all the listening audience, and Tim, you might really enjoy this too. The moth is a storytelling slam/slash competition. Okay. So every so you can find it, it's a podcast. You can find it on YouTube. It's it's it's there's chapters of it everywhere. So I went to a moth in Miami, for example. And you go there and there's a theme. That night that I went, the theme was chemistry, and you put your name into a hat. And they call your names out. And if they call your name, you get up and you have to speak for you tell a story for five minutes about the theme. And using the theme is one of the ways they make sure that they're not always people aren't just gonna come up and like, so here's the time that I was abused, you know, because that that can get a little much, you know?

Tim Newman:

Right, right, right.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

The other interesting thing is when you study really good storytellers, what a really good story does is it doesn't make you happy or sad, it does three things. One, it's an emotional roller coaster, it makes you feel several things. Yes, up, down, up, down, up, down, up, up, down, up down. Two, and this is probably the biggest one, okay. This is and this is how the difference between good and bad improv as well. Many people focus the story on what they did. To overcome a problem. But what makes a story really good is the problem, not the solution. Not the solution. In fact, a story, the really good storytellers, the problem is 90%. Stephen King is problem, problem, problem, problem, problem, problem, problem. Solutions are honestly at the end of his books. I'm always a little disappointed because he's so good at building the problem and causing problems. The Lord of the Rings is just a series of problems. They get this, but now there's this problem. They get this, and now there's this problem. And building up problems. And the last thing that for me that a story has that is interesting, that makes it kind of interesting is uncertainty. Yes. Because many of the times you kind of know where a story's going. So you need to have the uncertainty. And I'll give you a can I give you a two fancy words, two, uh, two fancy words that you've probably never heard of, but you use all the time. Do it. Okay. A tri-colon.

unknown:

Okay.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

Tri-colon just means a phrase with three things in it.

Tim Newman:

Okay. Okay. You heard of the rule of three. Yeah, rule of three. Yeah, yeah. Yep.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

But you can use a tri-colon in storytelling to create uncertainty, to create humor. And let me give you a quick example, okay? So a tri-colon is when something, comma, something, comma, something.

Tim Newman:

Right.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

The reason it's so effective is a tri-colon. The first two parts establish a pattern. The third thing confirms the pattern, right? Right. So the way you can use a tri-colon in a story to create uncertainty and also to have like some fun is you set up the two things with a pattern, and the third one is not part of the pattern. Because the audience, you're taking them on a journey and then you're throwing them a curveball. It's like there's things, three things you need in life. Food, water. And now you're if I hadn't said anything, you're expecting something like in love, right? But instead of like food, water, and the White Lotus TV show season four. That's all you need in life, you know? And you throw them a little curveball. And that they're like, ah ha ha ha. And if you can do those three things in a story, boom, then you got something. You got it, yeah.

unknown:

Yeah, yeah.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

Yeah.

Tim Newman:

And it it's it's those types of things that you don't necessarily have to be on stage to do.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

No, we all tell stories in conversations. That's why everyone wants a quote unquote conversational style.

Tim Newman:

Yeah. Yeah. When you go to a job interview, when when you're you know, when when you're in front of a team meeting, given a report, what does I mean it doesn't really matter? And you the part of the issue that I that I think we we really struggle with as a society is we don't know how to talk to people. We're not I'm not even talking about being on stage, right? We don't know how to how to take something like that and have a conversation with somebody. That's a that's the real problem.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

I think the idea that what you mentioned is, you know, one of the problems in society is being able to like get people to open up and have sincere conversations. Yeah. I want to can we touch on that for a minute? Yeah, please. Because I want to give your audience for you know, the millions around the world, I want to give you something right now, okay? This happens to me all the time. I actually did it today in a session. One of the ways we've been told to start conversations to show interest is to ask lots of questions. Yes. The problem with that is that it's only half the story. And if I only ask you questions, it becomes an interrogation. Interrogation, yes. So for example, you've all done this. You know, you're at a networking event. So what do you do? Where are you from? You have any kids, you have any family. And the more of those questions you ask, the less someone wants to ask it. Sorry, the less someone wants to answer it. Answer it. And I'll give you another read of good example, a good example. If you've ever been in a taxi or an Uber or something like that, and the person just starts asking you a bunch of questions, you're like, yo, you don't know me like that. Like, where are you headed? Oh, where are you going? Where are you coming from? You're like, yeah, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, no, no. No talkie. Right? Right. Why? It's because it's one way. Wait. And in fact, when I was researching communication, one of the places I kind of researched was police interrogation. And I spoke to a couple of interview experts. And I said, What's the difference between what you see on TV and what happens in the real world? And this is a fundamental truth. And I get resistance on it all the time because there's cognitive dissonance between what people want and what people do. They said the biggest difference is on TV, the cop is always asking a bunch of questions. But the more questions you ask someone, the less they want to answer them. Because it's one way. And they'll give you these one-word answers or very general answers because they don't really want to say. In the real world, we do a lot of talking at the beginning. We talk about all the things we know because the more we talk, the more someone wants to jump in, the more we reveal, the more likely they are to give us more information when we ask a question. Right. And here's the cognitive dissonance. I tell people that if you want to start a conversation with someone, before you ask any question, you have to reveal some information first. And people are like, oh, no, no, people don't want to hear about me. I'm like, yes, they do. That's why you're asking them questions. Right. But they're not going to answer if it's only one way. Right. So here's can I give you a strategy, Tim? Yes. And I literally did this today. And it was really funny because I don't tell them, I don't tell people I do this in my workshop. I just do it. Conversations happen. I teach them. I always get a question, like, you really think that works? I'm like, what do you think happened when you walked in? And there's this like crazy silence. And it's something you did naturally when we first met. And I did it, I kind of yes stand it. And that's why, for the listening audience, the Tim and I were met for like a 15-minute conversation that turned into like almost an hour. An hour. Because we were just, we just kept finding more and more things in common. And the connection was just there. And it's partially because, you know, you're a charming guy, you know how to communicate. But it was also because we use these subtle tactics. So here's the tactic. You know what? When you go up to someone and say, hey, how are you doing? If you just say, I'm fine, how are you? They're going to say, I'm fine, and you'll have nothing to talk about. Exactly. So you always defer, like, hey, it's hot outside. Hey, it's cold outside. Hey, so what are you doing? You're like, get me out. Get me out right now. I'm done. I'm done. Get me out.

Tim Newman:

I'm already bored.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

I'm already bored. Get me out. Instead, I always throw out something that I've just done or I'm looking forward to doing. Today, for example, the first two people that walked into the training session I was doing, I've never met any of these people. It's totally, I'm working at this company. They've never met me. I don't know them. First person walked in and said, How are you doing? It's like, well, I'm loving this bubbly that they gave me to drink. And they're like, Oh, you like sparkling water? I said, Yes. That turned into like a 10-minute conversation about vanilla ice cream, chocolate chips, eating. And as more people came in, they're like, we just the conversation kept flowing. Simply because I revealed something. Right. And I'll give everyone an experiment. Here's my experiment for everyone.

unknown:

Okay.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

If you ever meet someone, the one one thing people don't really like answering is where do you live? So what part of town you live in? Like, if I don't know you, like, you know, especially nowadays, we think everyone is crazy, right? Yes. We're we're as a society, like when I was a kid, my parents would let me walk like four blocks away, go to school. Like, no one does this anymore. You know, I took, I used to take the bus across town through like one of the ghettos in the city I grew up in. And I was like, I was in grade eight. No, grade seven. No one, I'm 12 years old. You don't, you never see a 12-year-old alone. Anyway, no side tangent. If you just say, so what part of town you live in, you're gonna get like, ah, the east side. Like no one wants to really tell you, right? So what I do is I always tell people what part of town I live in, and then it's just like the easiest thing in the world for them to answer. So for example, I'm in Toronto right now, and if I and I've and I've done I've done this, everyone do this. Say, I live in the annex. How about you? People are just, oh, I live over there. That's not too far. Like, and they'll just start telling me everything about where they live, just because I reveal something first.

Tim Newman:

I do say I do the exact same thing. I do the exact same thing. I'm a full-time RVer. I I live in in the R V park right down there by Seapines. They say, oh, really? Uh and and off we go.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

And then right away they'll tell you about, oh, I live over here. Oh, I've been there. And it's the su it's and this is the thing. Really good communication, like this tactic, for example, it's transparent. Yes, you don't even know it's happening. You just see the impact of it. And the only way that happens, I always say uh it's sort of like uh kissing. Tim, have you ever kissed anybody? Oh, absolutely. Okay, yeah.

Tim Newman:

I remember my hand earlier.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

So you think back to when you first kiss someone. When you're a little kid, you're like a teenager and you kiss for the first time, and it's kind of like uncomfortable and awkward, and you don't really know what to do. And like, is this it? You don't know. But the more you've you do it, I've heard, the better it gets. This little strategy. I'll take your word for it. I'll take it yeah, yeah. I'll take your word for it. Uh-huh. This strategy is the same thing. The first few times I did it, it was a little weird, it seems a little forest. I do it now all the time. No one even knows, and I just connect with people super fast.

Tim Newman:

Let me add something to that. Sure. And I can I can hear my listeners right now, and they're saying, some of them are saying, well, that that works for you because you're out going Yvonne. You don't know this, but I I'm a raving, raving introvert. Okay. But guess what? You can still do that. You have to if you're an introvert, you can still be that you can still have these types of conversations. Right? You don't you don't have to to sit over on the on the wall. You may not have as many of those conversations. You may have to do some things leading into those conversations, but don't think that you can't learn to do the those same types of things.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

Can I give some advice to the introverts listening? Please. Number one, suppose you use this strategy and you're terribly shy, you don't know what to say. I'm the shy person, I'm talking to Tim, and I know I'm introverted, but I'm gonna try the strategy. It's gonna be obvious that I don't know, I'm not a good talker, but now I've given Tim something to talk about that I have interest in, potentially, or to ask me questions about. So now I can, I don't, I don't have to worry, I can just respond. So, for example, if I'm super shy and you say, Yvonne, how you doing? And I say, Good, I'm going out for dinner with my friends after this. How about you? Oh, I'm doing great. Now you can ask me questions, you can tell me where.

Tim Newman:

I'm gonna say, Where are you going? First thing I'm gonna say, oh, where are you going? Have you been to this place? Have you been to that place?

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

Yeah. And if you can see that I'm nervous, at least now you have a launching board to start to talk. Right. So you okay, you can be like, okay, this guy looks like he's very shy, very timid. I'm gonna talk, I'm gonna talk, I'm gonna ask a couple of questions, but it gives us a direction. Absolutely. Here's another, but let me give you some advice because yes, Yvonne that's great. Tim, that's great. Still, I don't feel comfortable doing it. Fine, we're wrong, you're right. What else can we do? If you understand or you recognize that communication is important, but you are an introvert, you don't know how to do it, and you're very shy, you have social anxiety. Do not go to networking events, volunteer at them. There you go. Let's go one. I just needed to go out. And whenever they said, Do you want to just attend? I'm like, no, can I do the registration? Can I can I do the co-check? Do you need someone to run the bar? Why? Because it allowed me to have a role which brought people to me. But then when I reached my social kind of limit, I could hide behind my role.

Tim Newman:

Right. That's a good one.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

Yeah, and it let me meet way more people than everyone else would at a networking event just by volunteering at him or by attending than just by attending.

Tim Newman:

I I heard another one very similar to that recently. And what the person said was they got there early and they stood by the door like they worked there and just hi, um Was that me? Did we talk? Because that's I tell people to do that.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

That might have been me and our last conversation.

Tim Newman:

No, it was it was actually at a conference, and I Yeah, it's a great strategy. And so, so you know, and you you already know who you want to talk to there, but you you you shake hands and you see everybody hi and they see you, and then they come back later, hey, I know you from somewhere, or this, and they're you know, it's it it's figuring out a way to to do this in in your parameters. Still remember now, you still have to add the value to the other person, but you you you find you figure out how you how you can um live in that space and and and be successful.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

One of the other places that I say that it's always great to stand that it will kind of like just from social awkwardness will make people talk to you. Uh stand at the end of the buffet, stand at the end of the food. Like, you know where the coffee is, wherever the cream and sugar is. Just stand around there and people be like, Oh, are you waiting? No, no, go ahead, please. And it'll uh some it'll lead to small little conversations. It's another way to dip your toe.

Tim Newman:

Yeah, but I I'm not allowed to stand near the dessert area.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

That's why I said the coffee station, my friend. Coffee, no cream, no sugar.

Tim Newman:

See, then I'll be up on my too. I mean, I I mean we're we're we're good. I I mean I could that'd be awesome. You know, I I I I I love I I love this conversation because you know we we we think so much alike and and we we're not doing it the the the same way.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

Right? Yeah.

Tim Newman:

And it's we're we're we're trying to get people to understand, get their face out of their phone. See see what's actually in front of you and and it actually engage in that. And when we do this, you know, go going back to one of the first things we talked about education, you know, whether it's on you you're speaking, you're on stage, you know, you're a teacher, what have you, how do you know somebody is actually listening if you're up there doing all the talking? Right? How do you know that whatever message you're trying to to uh impart your your wonderful knowledge on if it's actually getting through? Yeah.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

I always say, Tim, if you're doing all the talking, how do you know anyone is listening? Listen, yeah. You know, if you're doing a that's one of the things that when I when I do keynotes, and uh one of I guess my kind of competitive advantage, my value proposition is I say that and I say, Imagine a keynote where the audience is also keynoting. Because I'm very interactive, I get people talking. So I brought him up earlier. So to answer this question, I want to talk about the mighty Sugata Mitra. Okay, a name you might you no one here has heard of. I invite everyone after you like and comment on this podcast episode, put all the comments down below, to after you do that and like this video and share it with five friends, and tell everyone you know about it. After all of that, go on YouTube and find Sugata Mitra's first TED Talk from like 2008 or something like that. Because his ideas still apply, and this answers your question. So here's what Sugata Mitra did, and it's a fascinating, fascinating story, Tim. It's it just by virtue of the experiments, it's interesting. But also he has a kind of a very kind of calm, very he's got a couple of nice jokes. He he's a good speaker, you know. So here's what made him famous in the world of education because he's like us and that he is trying to dramatically change the way we perceive learning. It's something that no one wants to do, but it's just so evident. Anyway, he became famous because he put a computer into a wall in a slum in New Delhi. I believe it was New Delhi. In a slum where people were illiterate. And he just put a computer in the wall and said, Let me see what's gonna let me see what happens. And then he recorded it and he showed how within hours kids started using the computer. These are illiterate kids who do not speak English. A few hours later, they're on the internet. They figured out how the internet works. A few hours after that, they're teaching other kids how the internet works. Before you know it, days later, there's huge groups of kids around this one computer and they're typing in English. They're going and finding games online. From that, he extrapolated and he did a bunch of experiments in learning. And here is how he's identified the most functional form of learning. Number one, you give people an open-ended challenge. Okay. Number two, you make them work in groups. Number three, you give them a shared information source. Meaning, if there's three of us in a group, there's only one computer. We're not all on our own computers.

unknown:

Okay.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

That's it. In every one of my sessions, I am constantly doing a challenge with group work. And then here's my little addition. There's always a deliverable. There's always something they have to do at the end. And then no one knows who's gonna do it. So let me give you an example. Give me any topic. Give me just any topic you've taught or you've seen taught, you've talked to someone about any topic.

Tim Newman:

Elevator pitches.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

Sure. So let's say I want to teach everyone elevator pitching. Most people would just say, here's how you do an elevator pitch, here's the elements of an elevator pitch. Everyone practice your elevator pitch. Here's what I would do. I would, and this is like I have one technique for elevator pitching. And I'll give it's called a log line. It just has three parts. I would teach them the log line, I would give them some examples, and I would say this. All right, everyone, you're gonna get into a group of three or four. All right. One person can have a phone or a laptop, no one else can. If you want to do find someone who's if you want to cheat, go on AI, make examples, but only one of you can have a can do it. You have to share your phone. I need you to make a log line. You only have two minutes. And when you're done, I'm picking random people to get up in front of everyone and tell us your log line. What have I done? Number one, open-ended challenge. Yep. Number two, group work. Number three, shared resource. But then here's even more magic. There's two other elements. I don't know if you spotted it, Tim. Can I put you on the spot? And don't worry if you don't get it, because if I did my job right, they're transparent. You don't really notice them. I did two other things. What do you think they were?

Tim Newman:

Well, one is you put everybody on notice that you better be prepared because you're gonna have to talk about it. You're gonna have to do it. And they don't know.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

That's exactly that's one of them. Yeah, 100%.

Tim Newman:

Oh, I don't hit me with the other one.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

Yeah, yeah, that's okay. That was the important. If if you say I'm gonna pick everyone's gonna pick one person from their group, right away I can chill because I know I'll just nominate the most outgoing person in my group. Right. If we don't know, damn, we all got to work. Right. But then I always give an unrealistic time constraint, uh, but allocate more time. Two minutes is what nowhere near enough time to even write something down. I allocate 10 minutes in my head, but I say you have two minutes, go. You know what happens? People do this. We only got two minutes, and they hyper. Let's go. Right. Yeah. And then when it's all said and done, like it. Yeah, you see, what we've done is we've created an environment where Where A, I've managed to teach, but that was the minority of the time.

unknown:

Right.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

The rest of the time is them working, problem solving, and presenting. And then my job is as they're working, I'm walking around coaching. Yes. Then by getting people to go up in front of everyone and then coaching them, I'm teaching what I normally would lecture. Right. And this is how we have to start working on things. Because again, think about this. People are saying, how do we stop AI in the classroom? You don't.

Tim Newman:

Don't.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

You don't, you don't stop the internet in the classroom. You work with it. I tell people, use AI. I don't care. You only got two minutes, but when you're done, I'm going to coach you through anyway.

Tim Newman:

Right.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

And what it does is it makes extremely learn um interactive, dynamic learning environments that more importantly, you actually know if people are learning or not. Because they're doing it the whole time.

Tim Newman:

They're doing it. And you see it. And they and they're talking and they're talking about it. You see that that's you know, for for those that have never been in that type of situation, you actually see the see them in the discussions and the work and the and the writing and the and the questioning within the group. You know, will this work or that work? And you you actually see that going on. And you as the coach, as again, as you're walking around, you can take if somebody has asked a question, you can say, that's a great question. Did you think about this? Oh, you really you you nailed that answer. How about from this perspective? And then you can get them to think even on a deeper level from from whatever position it is that you've seen them from.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

And the another really interesting thing that Sugata talked about in another lecture he did, like as I'm a very big fan of this guy. Sugata, if you're listening, call me, baby. Return my phone call. Uh, but Sugata talked about, you know, when in the world are you expected to memorize three months' worth of information and then verbally regurgitate it outside of university?

Tim Newman:

Never. Never.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

Never. Never so we're teaching people skills that that has two traps. The first is we're teaching people skills that they won't use in the real world. The second, that means that the system is set up to only reward those people who are good at that skill at memorization and regurgitation. He says you should get every SAT exam, every finals exam, you should give kids the internet. And we shouldn't be asking them any kinds of questions that revolve involve just remembering information. Because just like in the real world, if you don't know the answer, give me two minutes, I'll just look it up.

Tim Newman:

Right.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

Right. And that I think is there's so much pushback on that. But I want to give you one little funny anecdote before about this, right? Because people say if we do that, we're gonna ruin the way kids like kids won't be able to think anymore.

Speaker:

Well, they're not number one, they're not thinking now.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

They're not thinking exactly because we're only we're not teaching them how to think. We're forcing them to do things they would never do in the real world, right? That same argument came up when the internet was first the thing. That same argument came up when like CDs and cassettes, oh, people are just gonna be able to listen to everything, no one's gonna read. There is a very famous um I read in a book, there's a very famous um diatribe that was by Aristotle, and he talked about the death of the human mind because of this newfound book technology, and now kid no one's gonna have to remember anything because they'll just be able to look it up in a book, and it's the death of like human thinking. And it that's insane. But at that time, they they're you can see the same argument over and over. They were think of talking about books, what we think is the epitome of knowledge, as something that is like basically like this is based, this is gonna give everyone brain rot, because now no one's gonna memorize anything, they're gonna be able to look it up in a book.

Tim Newman:

It's it's funny when you think about it, uh, actually, you know, and it and now we have AI.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

I was just using it in my workshop today. I teach I always teach people how to cheat. Do you want to hear a cool example of how we do it? How I do it? Yeah, yeah. Okay, so uh by the way, I forgot to tell you the other thing. Remember, I told you the two words that you you've never heard of before, but you use all the time? Yes. Uh, the tri-colon, and the other one is uh um uh anaphora. Good old anaphora. These are terms that are in literature. Anaphora, you've totally is when you repeat the same word in every part of the tri-colon.

unknown:

Okay.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

And you and I are gonna do this right now, okay? Listening audience, let's all do this right now. Because if I told you, hey, listen, Tim, I want you to pitch yourself using a tri-colon with anaphora, go. You'd be like, what is a tri-colon? What is anaphora? And also in the moment you can't think of anything. Do you have your phone with you? Let's do this right now, just for fun, right? This will be a fun little experiment. Okay. Can you go on to like your favorite AI, your Chat GPT, whatever it is, okay? Yeah. Actually, I'm I'm gonna do this with you right now in real time. And this is what I did with the team. I'm like, yo, cheat. Use the AI to get the get your ideas, then make it your own. So, in a moment, we are going to make a value proposition for ourselves using a tri-colon and anaphora. The rule of three, and you repeat something in every part. Okay. Let me let me show you right here. And I'll I'll tell you, I'm gonna just I'm verbally doing this right now because it's way easier than typing. Ready? Here we go. So I want you to make a tri-colon with anaphora so I can pitch myself as a communications coach. My strategy is that I am very interactive, and I believe that if you don't have interaction and people conversing when you're trying to teach them, you're actually not teaching them anything. Please give me three examples of a value proposition using tri-colon and anaphora. One very provocative, one very conservative, and one that is very funny. This is one of the ways we can work with AI. Whatever it gives me is not gonna be perfect, but I can start using this as a foundation to make something that's really cool. So, Tim, if you're doing the same thing, mine it's mine, it's taking a moment to think. I'm gonna give you mine, and then you're gonna give me yours, okay? Try colon, anaphora. Give me three examples, and here's here it is. Ready? Okay. Ooh, okay. Without interaction, there is no curiosity. And without curiosity, there is no learning. You see the repetitiveness? Without interaction, there is no, there is no, there is no. That's there is no is the anaphor. Here's another one. That was the provocative one, which I don't think is very provocative. Okay, here's the conservative one. With interaction, people engage. With interaction, people understand. With interaction, people grow. And the anaphores with interaction, and it's the three parts. Now, here's the funny one. If you wanted a lecture, you'd watch YouTube. If you wanted a monologue, you'd call your uncle. If you wanted real learning, you'd talk to me. Oh, actually, that one's not bad.

Tim Newman:

That's a good one.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

Now notice there's three parts to it, and the anaphores if you wanted. Now, what I would do with in this situation, and this is literally what I did today, is I said, okay, that's great, but now I want you to combine them, change them, make them more personal, or make them more specific. And then before you know it, you get a fun little thing. And then, but then here's how you leverage AI. I tell them this, and then Tim, I say, okay, memorize one of them, because in a moment, you're gonna have to say it without looking at your phone. We don't have to do that part, but this is how you leverage it to make sure that you're not just doing AI, you're leveraging AI.

Tim Newman:

All right, so here's the first one that came up. I help people communicate with purpose, communicate with confidence, and communicate without sounding like a malfunctioning robot. That's not bad. I love it. I love it. I I help people communicate with purpose, communicate with confidence, and communicate like they actually meant to open their mouth.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

Interesting. See, that's and the first one is very much your personality too, I think.

Tim Newman:

It is.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

Yeah, it is.

Tim Newman:

So basically, I I I put uh one of them has to one of them has to be funny, one of them has to um be dealing with confidence, and one has to deal with communicating with value.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

Okay, what's the last one?

Tim Newman:

Funny, confidence, and value.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

No, no, give me the what what's the one I gave you for the value one? Because it you gave me two of them so far.

Tim Newman:

I got hold on before I did I don't know where this one came from.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

All right, let's hear it.

Tim Newman:

I help people communicate with purpose, communicate with confidence, and communicate without uhs, ums, and and the awkward panic face. None of them need to actually say value. None of them.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

Well, you know what's interesting to me though is that now that you have that, here's the exercise. You gotta start. Um, you and I, we have to start going, we have to iterate back and forth, but we can't look at them. Then all of a sudden you start thinking of your own ways to say it, then it becomes your own personal value proposition that not anyone can say. And this is how we work with AI to develop our communication, not to hinder it. Exactly. It's ideas, and then we use we extrapolate those ideas through interaction and conversation. And look, that first one, I guarantee you you're gonna be like, oh, I'm gonna save that. That's good.

Tim Newman:

I am.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

Yeah, I'm definitely saving it. Yeah. And then here's the thing. Now, every time and every time you try and sneak it into a conversation, don't tell anyone it this. Like with your wife, be like, So, how'd it go? Pretty good, you know. I really, I mean, I had a realization. I realized, and then try to say it. You'll mess it up a little bit, and then the more you do that, the more you'll put it in your own words, and then before you know it, it's gonna be supernatural. You're gonna say it to a group of people, and they're gonna be like, damn, Tim, that's good. I want to hire you for my next movie.

Tim Newman:

And that's the thing, because they're gonna remember it. It's not it's not a canned, boring. Um, my name is John. I help people with marketing and great metrics. Yeah, it's it's it's value, and they're gonna, it's memorable. They're gonna remember it.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

Yes.

Tim Newman:

And you want people to remember you, especially if you're trying to apply for a job.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

And here's the other interesting thing. When you said remember, it's very interesting because when you do this, people never remember, even us right now, we don't remember the exact wording, but we have that moment of like, I just remember it sounding really good. So when I think about Tim and I'm going through resumes, I'm like, oh, that's the one who gave me that cool little phrase. God, what was it? I can't remember. I'm gonna ask him, but that was a really good phrase. We usually remember the impact it had on us. Rarely do we remember it word for word, but because it's so rare for people to speak with impact, it stands out even more.

Tim Newman:

Exactly. Well, Yvonne, this has been amazing. I love it. We could you and I could go on for hours with this. I think so. And call me back. Honestly, we'll be back next year. We will get you back on again again. That that's for that's for sure. But uh because we haven't even talked about your book. We there's there's so much we haven't talked about. Um so you're so you're you're definitely coming back on. I'm already telling you that. So put it in your calendar.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

Someday, my friend.

Tim Newman:

Very soon. But in the meantime, where can people connect with you?

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

Yeah, so the company's called Public Speaking Lab. You can find me on LinkedIn, you can find me on Instagram. I think I'm on TikTok. Yeah, I'm on TikTok. Um, it's just Public Speaking Lab. And the book available at Fine Retailers Everywhere. It's called End Boring, a Tactical Approach to Communication.

Tim Newman:

For sure. Next time we have you on maybe that maybe we start with the book. Because, you know, and here's but here's the thing. I mean, you you you know me now, and and um I always try and get to it, but it's always one of the last things we talk about. Um but I I I I think that especially with you in that book, maybe maybe we start there next time.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

Sure. Yeah, and I'm actually working on a second book right now. Timeline, I'm not sure yet, but uh it's gonna be exploring the dark side of communication because I find you know people like con artists and and uh cult leaders to be cult leaders, yeah. Yeah, to and no one thinks about them as being highly effective, persuasive like communicators. We think of them as bad people. But you know, Darth Vader found the light at the end. So I want to take that dark side stuff and use it to our advantage.

Tim Newman:

Yeah, you use it for good.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

Yeah, use it for good.

Tim Newman:

Yeah. All right, my friend. Will you take care of yourself and we'll talk to you real soon?

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

Tim, it's been a pleasure as always. Thank you for having me so much on the show. Thank you for everyone for listening, and I'm excited to come back and see you again.

Tim Newman:

And one more thing before I close out. I I do I do want to thank you for saying we have millions of listeners. So now the challenge to all of my listeners and followers um go out and tell your friends because we we gotta show Yvonne. We do have uh a million listeners.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz:

Comment on the YouTube channel, comment on the podcast, share it with five friends, make a post on Instagram. Do it all, baby. Appreciate it. Talk to you soon. Thank you so much, Tim. Bye, everybody.

Tim Newman:

Be sure to visit speakwith conference podcast.com. Get your free ebook, top twenty countless public speakers. How would you remember? Your voice is not speaking. We'll talk to you next time.

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Tim Newman

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