Speaking With Confidence

How Introverts Can Thrive on Stage and in Networking Events with Michael Pope

• Tim Newman • Season 1 • Episode 99

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Have you ever wondered how introverts can thrive on stage and conquer self-doubt, even when anxiety and imposter syndrome are in the way? In this episode of Speaking with Confidence, we dive deep into the journeys, frameworks, and behind-the-scenes realities of overcoming hesitation so you can step up and speak out—no matter how nervous you may feel.

Today, I’m excited to welcome my friend Michael Pope: an international keynote speaker, leadership coach, and author of Doers Win the Day. Known as the Hesitation Breaker, Michael Pope brings over two decades of IT and leadership experience, having transformed software developers into adept people developers. His expertise centers on productivity, overcoming hesitation, and equipping high achievers and introverted professionals with the tools they need to succeed.

We explore the unique challenges introverts face when the spotlight is on. Michael Pope opens up about his process for “recharging on demand” after high-energy engagements and the importance of being present and available to audience members after events—even if it feels uncomfortable at first. We also discuss practical networking strategies, like attending events with a purpose-driven list of connections, and why you must add value to others before asking anything in return.

A major highlight of our conversation is imposter syndrome and the excuses that creep in. We talk candidly about those moments of hesitation—like almost inviting a dream guest on the show but never quite hitting send. 

We unpack Michael Pope’s signature DOER framework (Discipline, Opportunity, Eliminate Excuses, Responsibility) and how it applies not just to speaking, but to every area of personal and professional growth. He gives real-life examples of stretching outside your comfort zone, preparing for high-stakes talks (and recovering when things go wrong), and the importance of coaching and mentorship—no matter how seasoned you become.

Here’s what we cover in this episode:

  • Why sharing personal stories (especially about family) builds trust and relatability
  • Strategies for introverts to thrive on stage and in back-to-back networking environments
  • The necessity of approaching events and networking with a clear, value-driven purpose
  • The DOER framework and how to use it to push through hesitation, excuses, and fear
  • Real talk on imposter syndrome and actionable ways to move past it
  • How joining Toastmasters and investing in coaching can fast track your progress
  • Surprising lessons from sharing the stage with legends like Les Brown and learning from mentors like Roddy Galbraith
  • The process of preparing for a major keynote event—from understanding the client’s goals to practicing with intention
  • When technology fails: staying cool, calm, and professional under pressure
  • The power of recording yourself and constructive self-feedback for brand-new speakers
  • Why celebrating small wins every day fuels growth and momentum for the long haul

If you want to find your authentic voice, build rock-solid speaking habits, and finally stop holding yourself back, you’ll want to listen to every minute of this episode. Tune in, take notes, and remember: your voice has the power to change the world—but only if you’re brave enough to use it.

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Tim Newman:

Welcome back to Speaking with Confidence, a podcast that helps you build the soft skills that lead to real results. Communication, storytelling, public speaking, and showing up with confidence in every conversation that counts. I'm Tim Newman, a recovering college professor turned communication coach, and I'm thrilled to guide you on your journey to becoming a powerful communicator. Today's guest is Michael Pope. Michael has 20 plus years in IT and leadership development and has transformed software developers into people developers. He is an international keynote speaker and leadership coach, known as the hesitation breaker and the author of Doers Win the Day. He speaks to high achievers, corporate professionals, and coaches leaders on productivity, leadership, and overcoming hesitation. Michael, welcome to speaking with confidence. You know, we we connected uh you know on a Zoom call, you know, a couple months ago, but in person in August. And we'll come back to that. But before we get started, I want to bring up something that really kind of you did that really kind of resonated with me. I saw a post that you did on LinkedIn oh a few weeks ago where where you said you went and went witnessed your your sons um uh get black belt and karate. Yes. And one of the things that what resonates with me is people that actually talk about their families and their stories and in their in their posts, because for for me, that's what I do. But my stories are about me and my kids, my family, whatever it is. And to me that that's that shows a a different kind of person and what family actually means to them.

Michael Pope:

Absolutely. Yeah, it means a whole lot to me for sure. My wife and I have three sons, and they're all in um karate. Three black belts. So yeah.

Tim Newman:

Dude, that's awesome. Uh you don't have to worry about you know protecting your house. I mean, it's all everything's all taken care of. You know, but it's it it's to me, it it's important and shows what what is what other people are important, what what what is important to other people, let's just put it that way. And and that's kind of how we um or or how I look at it, you know, it's it's it's it's about that. But you know, we could like I said we connected at uh International Maxwell Conf conference in uh August. Yeah and you and you were on stage and we can we connected after that. And when when people go on stage, you know, I I maybe I look at things differently. You know, I remember what you talked about. You talked about the the value framework um in and and and teaching people how to use uh you know go high level and that type of thing. So you know, I'm sure a lot of people come come off and say, Michael, you did a great job. Um, but what but what did you learn? But you're an introvert like I am. How do you react and how do you handle as soon as you get off stage and people are are bum rushing you, they want to talk to you when they congratulate good pictures and that and that that type of thing.

Michael Pope:

Yeah, great question, Tim. Um, as an introvert, and you and you know how introverts are, right? Normally we want to be alone, especially after giving of ourselves. A lot of times we want to go back and and just recharge. What I've learned is as a speaker, I owe it to my audience to be present, right? So if people want to come up and take pictures, they want to come up and ask questions, I owe it to them to be present. So what I do is I've learned how to quickly within seconds just refresh my mind and and change my state to a state of giving.

unknown:

Right.

Michael Pope:

And I'm looking at okay, how can I add value to this person? Even if I'm tired, I can still push through it and open up and connect with them. And it it takes me out of my comfort zone as an introvert, however, uh I owe it to the audience.

Tim Newman:

Well, and you know that that's really does say say a lot. And again, let's look at it from from the introvert's perspective, because I'm I'm also a raging introvert. And you know, when you when you come off the stage, and so I I look at it like this. When I go to a networking event and I teach people, you know, go in with purpose. Yes. When you go to a conference, go in with purpose. Don't just, you know, because if you don't, you're gonna be overwhelmed and you won't get anything accomplished. And so, like when I went to IMC, that was first my first time at IMC, one number one, I had no idea what to expect. But there were a number of people that I wanted to connect with. I they they were on my list, right? I want to connect with this person, I want to talk to them, I want to learn about this, and this that's such a smart technique that go into a networking event, right?

Michael Pope:

You gotta you'll be kind of all there and teach that because going in with purpose with a list, that's that's so smart.

Tim Newman:

Right. And when you go in with that list, don't just go in, hi, I'm I'm Tim. Bring value, right? You because you because you're you're looking, you want to add value. If you want to get value back, you have to add value. You know, so you should know who these people are or know something about them so that you number one, there's a conversation starter, that there's something in common that you all can can build on or whatever. Um that that's the other thing that that's really important. But there were like there were five key people that were on my list, and and you were one of them. And I'm so glad that we did get a chance to connect. And we know we talked about you know, another person that was on the list that I didn't get, that that I'm gonna have to get outside of my comfort zone if I'm ever really gonna get be able to connect with that person. Because high-profile person, always surrounded by people, always trying people, you know, other people are trying to uh take that time. So as an introvert, we have to figure those things out.

unknown:

Yeah.

Michael Pope:

I say you I say you need to invite her to your show.

Tim Newman:

I you know what? I here's here comes the truth. Here comes the truth. Because we gotta be honest, right? I've almost done it five times. I've almost done it five times, so I haven't done it yet. It's it's it's like it's that that imposter syndrome. Why why would she want to come on my show?

Michael Pope:

Been there, been there, yeah.

Tim Newman:

And you know, part of it, and honestly, what one of the things I've been doing is what's what's my value proposition to her to get her to to spend an hour and a half with me and my audience? That's what I have to figure out, right? Because I'm sure you know I'm sure she gets requests every day. And she's just you know, one of the things that you learn is you have to figure out how to spend your time and who you're gonna spend your time with. So, what kind of value can I bring for her to be able to come on the show? And you know, um, I'd like to brag, you know, we got a pretty good sized audience here. You know, we're you know, we're we're pr ranked pretty high in you know uh worldwide, but what kind of value can we bring? And because I know she'll bring value, period. I mean, every every time I've heard her speak, she brings value. Yes, that's the other thing. So get outside your comfort zone, do th do the hard thing. As as Ryan Leak would say, do it scared.

Michael Pope:

Uh yeah, absolutely do it scared. Be willing to fail, right?

Tim Newman:

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So one here we we've talked a number of times about there are so many IT professionals in this space because for you know, for whatever reason, they're they're they're trained, they're highly technical, they don't necessarily have to deal with people, but to progress anywhere, you have to learn how to communicate.

Michael Pope:

That was me growing up, yeah. For sure. Even when I started my when I first started my career, Tim, I remember I would sit at the table and they would say, Hey, we've got this problem. Anyone have any ideas? And I'm a natural problem solver, so I would solve the problem in my head, but I wouldn't raise my hand because I was like, Oh, somebody else already have that, or I figured it out too soon. Like I would I would doubt myself. Right. And then someone else would answer the same thing I was thinking about, and then I felt really bad because I was like, I knew the answer. I knew I had to write, and I didn't speak up.

Tim Newman:

And so, how did you get over that?

Michael Pope:

For me, it was personal development, right? I started reading personal development books, and then I ended up joining Toastmasters in 2003, and that started the process of me learning how to effectively use my voice. And Toastmasters gave me an audience of people who would pay attention to you speak. And as an introvert, normally it's hard for us to get you know into a conversation, right? You think you put an introvert in a room with a bunch of people who are already talking, the introvert is just gonna be sitting there nodding their head because they're not gonna be in any words in. But Toastmasters put me in an environment where I was able to speak, had people you know clapping for me, giving me feedback, and that really changed me. It took a while for me to overcome that fear, but that really that process really changed me, Tim.

Tim Newman:

Yeah, so let's put let's kind of put this in in perspective. Um, my guess there were 1,500 people when you were speaking at at IMC in the room.

Michael Pope:

Uh didn't even count it, but yeah.

Tim Newman:

I there was I saw somebody at the door with a with a with a clicker there. Oh but there was a lot, uh there was a ton of people there. I mean, it this is not this is not you know a 25 or 30 person. This it was huge, it was packed. And so you you go from sitting at a table, you know, petrified to open your mouth about answering a question to giving a profound, impactful, value-packed presentation for 45 minutes. That's a lot of growth. And and that's what one of the things I I hope my audience understands. Just because you you're here now doesn't mean that's where you have to stay.

Michael Pope:

Absolutely.

unknown:

Right.

Tim Newman:

So so finding that way, how did you end up at Toastmasters? Were you nudged in that direction? Did someone did you have a mentor or a coach or somebody say, Michael, this is what walk me through your journey, how that how this happened.

Michael Pope:

Yeah, so this is back in early 2000, like I mentioned, and I was into personal development. So one of the things, you know, in 51, so I had cassette tapes at the time, and I was listening to a cassette tape from Brian Tracy about it, it was something about how to develop confidence, or some confidence was a part of the title of his program. And so I was listening to it, and he said, one of the things that will help you out is joining Toastmasters. And I remember hearing about Toastmasters before, but I never really looked into it. But after Brian Tracy said that, I went and found a Toastmasters club, I showed up, and then I I've been a member 20 plus years now.

Tim Newman:

So so do you still still go to meetings on a weekly or monthly basis?

Michael Pope:

Yes, yes. Yeah, I'm currently active in two clubs. I'm also very active in my district as far as doing um presentations, helping other speakers as well. So very active.

Tim Newman:

So so let me let me follow up here real quickly. You help other speakers. This is something that you know I try and and and harp on a lot. If we want to get better, we can't just get better for us. We we have to to pour in other people. We have to help, you know, it's sometimes it's like pulling teeth. I'm dragging you along. Come with me because you you know, you can do this, you can get better. You can you know, there's other people out there that that need that need that help. And if we're in a position to help people, we should be we should be doing that willingly for those that that want to do the work.

Michael Pope:

Absolutely. And you learn. So I know I I know for me personally, I learn more. If I'm helping someone else overcome their fear of public speaking, then it forces me to remember back when I had those fears and think about the processes that I use as I'm as I'm coaching them through it. And so it just it's just a win-win scenario.

Tim Newman:

It really is. Uh, and I can't. So I've I've been involved with with Maxwell Maxwell leadership team for about six, seven months now, and you you a lot longer. Um, the coaches that we have access to, the mentors that we have access to are number one are incredible. I mean, yes, yes. Um and you know, let's let's just talk about Roddy Galbert for for just a second. I don't think I've ever met somebody who is so willing and accessible. I mean, you I I could email him today, you know, at at let's just say three o'clock, and if he doesn't get back to me today, I'll have something when I wake up in the morning with with with a with a comment or whatever. He listens, you know, we can send him videos and and he good job, dude. Yeah, it's it's funny because my wife now hears him and and she's saying saying what what he says, but you know, before before I before I get out, it's a good job, God bless. Yeah and it but he's he's spot on. And yes, and if you you know, if you track, at least for me, if you track video one and you're working on the same thing to video five, you can you can see and hear the progress. What's something that he's taught you?

Michael Pope:

Well, so one, I admire the way he breaks down a speech. Yeah, right, because when I when I attended my first IMC and he broke down John's keynote speech, and as far as these are the number of stories John told, these are the examples John did, and and and and here's where he put the points in. So that helped me really understand how to organize a keynote effectively. Because my logical brain would just be teach, teach, teach, teach, teach. And Roddy's like, no, you can't just teach, teach, teach, teach, right? You've got to break it up, you've got to have those stories in there, some some type of analogy where the audience can connect. Um, so that's really helped me out. When I went through stage time, and I've I've participated in his stage time multiple times. Like, I people always submit videos to him before that. But I remember one particular speech, I was talking about my grandfather my grandpa Joe, and I remember the beginning, like you said, the first speech versus the one I gave on stage, it was amazing the transformation. Like, there's things when I first delivered it, I was like, Oh, this is great. There's no changes. And then Riley was like, No, okay, change this, or you you've got too many points, and it needs to be one point for just three minutes. And right, this little thing that I didn't think about before, right? He gave me them little small tweaks along the way, which which gave me a framework to make all my other speeches and stories better.

unknown:

Yeah.

Tim Newman:

Let's get back to framework in a second, but I've got another question. I've seen you with a a lot of videos with Les Brown.

Michael Pope:

Um, yes.

Tim Newman:

Tell me about that interaction because that's that to me is I'd I'd love to spend 10 minutes with him too.

Michael Pope:

You know, Les Brown is uh he's an amazing human, right? I I grew up listening to him when I was younger because for me, he was like probably like the only black speaker on the stage at that at that at his level, and he's still doing it today, right? He's still on top, and he's 80 years old. So I've had opportunities, I had an opportunity to interview Les in person. I had opportunity to speak on the same stage as Les a couple times, and he gave me an endorsement video. So I remember sitting back having lunch with Les, and this asked him, Hey Les, will you record a testimonial for me? He was like, sure. You know, we grabbed the phone, he did it at one take. He was like, This I'm talking about? Okay, boom. And his mind is so sharp. Like he actually, Tim, he took, he asked me a couple of questions and then he retold my story. A story by means he's like, hello, ladies and gentlemen, I'm Michael Pope, blah blah blah, right? And I was sitting there blown away of how he just took that little information that I gave him and put it into a story format. He brought in quotes, he's very sharp, probably brought some like some nice quotes to tie it in together. Uh absolutely amazing human.

Tim Newman:

That that's that's awesome. And you know, when I when I think about it, you know, they're there are special people like that, right? That the number one, they're they're they're incredibly intelligent, brilliant, brilliant people, brilliant people. And to be able to continue doing those things at 80 because they're continuing to do those things.

Michael Pope:

Exactly.

Tim Newman:

They can right, you you you you know what I'm saying, right? So they're not okay. I'm 75, it's time to to to sit back.

Michael Pope:

No, no, I've got to give consistent.

Tim Newman:

Be consistent, continue to give back, continue to provide value to other people. And that is that's I mean, that when when you look at the older generations, when they get to a certain age, they stop doing things, and that's when their mind starts to go. That's when when other things happen. But if you continue doing the things that you love and you're passionate about that you're good at and providing value to people, you can do these things for for a long, long time.

Michael Pope:

Absolutely. Like he one of the things he says, he says, he said, I'm gonna die with a mic in my hand. He's like, I'm gonna keep speaking as long as I can. And he's he's gone through some major health challenges that would have caused most people to sit back and retire. You know, but he's he's he's still at it. He was in I think Florida a couple of weeks ago. I remember seeing pictures on the internet with uh, I think he was at Paul Martinelli had an event and Les Brown spoke part of that. I think it was either it was either in Texas or Florida. I can't I don't remember now, but that's all it's it it's amazing.

Tim Newman:

And you know, when when John Maxwell you know said you know a couple weeks ago that dude's 78, right? And he dude is 78, he's writing three books. Come on now.

Michael Pope:

Exactly.

Tim Newman:

I struggle. I I I just finished writing one, and I'm like, oh, but I I got I gotta take a nap.

Michael Pope:

Yeah, he's writing three books, he's he's speaking all around the world, right? He he's still going to all these different countries doing his transform. Like they just got back from Argentina doing a transformation trip. And yeah, but he's he's living with purpose.

Tim Newman:

Right. And and that's the thing. That's at least for me, you know. I tell people I've I've been looking for this for a long time, right? And you know, the that that you know uh found the people, and it it's it's something that has reinvigorated me and more gotten me more passion back into doing what I do. Um and it's it it's amazing. And just how much I've learned in six months, how much better I've gotten in in six months. You know, and I've never told anybody this publicly. My wife and I have talked about it. I want to do what Roddy does, right? I don't necessarily want to be you know the the Johns or the Lesses, right? Yeah, I want to be Roddy. I want to be the guy that that helps other people become John and Les.

Michael Pope:

That's awesome. I'm sure that's great fulfillment for Roddy, right? Just seeing all these other amazing speakers go out and and because he's seen us like struggle, like he he saw Chris Robinson struggle, and then he sees Chris on you know big stages all around rural. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah.

Tim Newman:

And so I'm actually gonna see both Chris and Roddy here in a couple weeks.

Michael Pope:

Oh, congratulations.

Tim Newman:

And I'm gonna tell I'm I'm gonna tell Roddy that. I'm gonna say that that's that's what I'm that's what I want to do, that's what I'm working towards. That's that's the the the direction that that that I want to head. Because I I think you know, I I end each podcast with your your voice has a power to change the world. Um but you have to be able to use it. And you have to know you have to know how to use it. You have to to to be able to formulate the the thoughts and the feelings and the ideas so that people can actually understand what you're the points that you're that you're trying to make. And that leads me to the framework. Let's get back to it. Yes. I I and I think frameworks for for most people are are really what they need. They we don't need abstract ideas. We we need easy to to use, easy to understand pathways. And and that's I I've been using frameworks for for for pretty much everything. If I find and if I find something that works, that's what I do. It's that's it becomes a go-to, it becomes habit. So so talk to me about you know so the uh uh some of the frameworks that that you've built.

Michael Pope:

Absolutely, right? So James Clear says you don't rise to the level of your goals, you fall to the level of your systems. And so systems in our case is framework, right? That's all it is, a repeatable process. And for me, one of my biggest frameworks that I use in almost every area of my life is my doer framework. And I wrote a book on it, Doers Win the Day here. So it's an acrostic. My framework, D-O-E-R, is the acrostic. And when it comes to speaking, I use the same thing. So D and for speaking in Doer would be discipline. And I learned from my mentors, Tim, that I have to have to discipline myself to study other great communicators, right? She told me to study other speakers, she gave me books, CDs, VHS tapes back in the day of these amazing speakers, and I continue to study speakers, which is why I'm constantly connecting with other speakers and learning from them, not trying to copy them, but learning from them. How do they connect with their audience? How do they tell stories? All of that. Right. So that's part of the framework, the D discipline. The O is typically for either one thing or when it comes to speaking, it was the opportunity. So my mentor, one of my first speaking mentor, she told me, she said, Michael, take advantage of every opportunity to speak. And Tim, she knew that I was introverted and that I wouldn't speak up in meetings. She said, When you go to a meeting, ask a question, add value in that meeting. When you come to a if you come to a Toastmasters Club and there's no speeches that day, she says, I want you to get up and give a speech. And she constantly stretched me, hey, there's an opportunity to speak over here. Go say yes, go speak. Even if you don't feel ready, go speak, right? So that was that's part of my framework is taking advantage of every opportunity to speak. The E in the doer acrostic is eliminate excuses. I learned from another one of my mentors about how excuse light is a failure disease, and I learned to start eliminating any excuses that were holding me from doing something. So if I'm feeling nervous about speaking somewhere and the topic is in alignment with me, then I just I go ahead and do it, right? I break free from that, even if I'm a little nervous, it's a bigger stage. And I I've been places before. I mentioned earlier about speaking on the same stage as Les Brown. So I actually spoke right before Les Brown.

Tim Newman:

Oh my.

Michael Pope:

And he he called back to my something I said in my speech, which was pretty cool. But you think about like being on the same stage of him in imposter syndrome sitting in setting in, like, do you even deserve to be here? Right? You you deal with that little type of things, but eliminating excuses. So I had to break free from those excuses, those that hesitation that's holding me back, and do it anyway. Right. And then R for me is all about responsibility. So it's personal responsibility for the two things that I have complete control over. One is my attitude, and the other is my actions. That's it. So I'm in control with the way I think, my attitude about it can either be a positive attitude, and I use affirmations to help me with that. But my part of my framework is getting myself in the right frame of mind. So before I go speak, I'm letting myself, hey, Michael, you are amazing. Today you're gonna do great. Your audience loves you, they want to see you succeed. You're gonna add so much value to them. So I'm constantly telling myself things like that to change my attitude, and then my actions is just me doing what I can control. So that means preparing for my speech, make sure that I know my content. That way, when I get on stage, I'm not thinking in my head about what am I gonna say? I already know that. Like that's already taken care of. Instead, I can focus on the audience, making eye contact with people, sending them love and and asking them questions and feeling completely confident knowing that I'm fully prepared for this presentation. So that's kind of how I use my doer framework.

Tim Newman:

Yeah, let's go back to to excuses for just a second.

Michael Pope:

Yeah.

Tim Newman:

With imposter syndrome, you know, for we all have we everybody has it. Yeah, absolutely. Everybody has it. It depends on when it shows up, how it shows up, and how we deal with it, right? So when it comes to speaking for you, where does that come from? How how how did that happen? Is it just because you know you're that that that that introverted person or is there something else? Or how did that because uh before and again before you answer, I read in your book about your grandfather's funeral and it tore me up. Dude, I was crying over it. And so is so tell me how the imposter syndrome happened, and did it happen because of that or before before that?

Michael Pope:

I say it happened before that. So I grew up as an only child, and being introverted, I was always slow to speak when someone would ask a question. So what would happen is I would be around other people, and then someone else would speak for me. They would say, Oh, yeah, Michael doesn't like that, or yeah, yeah, Michael doesn't want to do that. He wants to come over here with us. And and I got used to having other people speak for me. Okay, and it made it to the point where I was like, Well, no one wants to hear my words, right? So then I would just tell those stories you tell yourself.

Tim Newman:

Right.

Michael Pope:

And so that's kind of how I was. And then going back to my grandpa, my grandpa Joe's funeral, sitting on that row, wanting to share with my his family, friends, loved ones that were there to, you know, for his funeral, wanting to share how wonderful Grandpa Joe was for me, how the type of impact he had made on me. But I was still consumed with the stories of, oh, what if I mess up? What if they don't like me? Like all those different what-ifs that I was telling myself. No one else told me that. It was just things that I that I thought.

Tim Newman:

Right. And you and and and your grandfather had had a special relationship. Yeah, so and so moving forward, did that um I know eventually you decided to to to take steps, but moving forward initially, did did that make it worse, or were you uh how how did that change you? How how did that evolve?

Michael Pope:

It made it better because it's uh because I've had the opportunity to talk about my grandpa Jill on so many different platforms. And I'm able to look back and see, okay, even though I didn't speak up that day, I'm speaking up now. And I can still I still learn so much from my grandfather. I mean, I still keep so I talk in the story about how he won the Thomas Jefferson's Servant Leadership Award. I still keep that on my desk as a reminder for for me of just the type of man he was. Right. Um, and it's yeah, so it just it's just it constantly reminds me of this, of creating the proper legacy, the type of leg legacy that I want to be able to leave, where when I'm gone, people can say, Oh yeah, Michael added so much value to me by doing this, or the way he served, or the way he did this type of thing. Um and so it just fuels me.

Tim Newman:

And and that gets back to where you are today doesn't mean that's where you have have to stay. Again, exactly. I mean, and you know, you're you're gonna be better tomorrow than you are today because you're gonna continue to work, just like which when I when I found out you know, six months ago that John Maxwell had a speaking coach, I said, well, if John Maxwell has a speaking coach, how come everybody doesn't have a speaking coach? Um if he's still at 70 some years old, still getting better, why why is it that you know I'm not getting better? Why is it that I'm not doing the things I need to do to get better? And that that was a wake-up call. Yeah, I didn't know that, right? And so ever everybody can get better, but you have to do the work. That's that's the other you can't just wish to get better, you have to actually do the thing, whatever.

Michael Pope:

I know I've paid thousands of dollars for speaking coach, like outside, even outside of the Maxwell team, even though I have access to people like Roddy and other people in the Maxwell team, I've still hired other coaches. I mean, I'm I'm a part of multiple speaking programs where I'm learning from other people. So one is NSA Ohio, National Speakers Association, I'm a part of that organization, learning from those people. But I've also hired coaches, so on people to coach me one-on-one as well.

Tim Newman:

Yeah, that that that that's just because you've decided to get better at your craft.

Michael Pope:

Yeah, that's that's what everybody, I mean, I and and I'll say also, so I've decided to get better, which is I think everybody wants to get better, but also I realize that I only have so much time left on this earth. So it's like I can either stretch it out long and try to learn it myself, or I can get coaching to help me go further faster. Yes.

Tim Newman:

And that and that's that's the real key, right?

Michael Pope:

Yeah.

Tim Newman:

Because the the the better you get the the better you get the quickest, the more value you can provide to other people. Absolutely. And that's the that's the you know that that's that's kind of the the whole point of it, I I I I would think. You know. Um and again, I gotta I gotta be honest, the excuses, I just when we started this, I gave excuses why why I didn't reach out to the other person. Why I why I haven't asked, right? That's you gotta take responsibility for that. And and again, that's one thing that I that I for for my listeners to hear that that it's not that I'm perfect either, because I'm no different than they are. So have the still have the same thought processes. It's just taking steps to

Michael Pope:

get better at taking steps to to do whatever the thing is re recognize it and then taking new steps don't don't just recognize and have a framework or you know a process in place to help you with that whenever you whenever that hesitation that fear shows up you've got to have a process in place absolutely um what what what has been your your your big biggest I wouldn't say fail uh but your biggest embarrassment at one stage and how did you deal with it embarrassment I'm not even I don't have any big embarrassments that come to mind but I'll tell you about I'll tell you about an opportunity I'll tell you about one example of something that years ago would have been I would have considered an embarrassment. So my wife and I actually flew to Jamaica I had an opportunity to speak in Jamaica last year at someone's um live the lead event and you know I showed up early prepared asked to do a tech check but they they didn't want to do that like that and they were like oh we got it we got it right the the the host introduces me to go speak I was the first in-person speaker so I go up on stage get ready to speak and I see the person over at the the desk trying to unlock um the computer to just show my slides so they had to wait for the host to come over and unlock the computer they get the slides up well they're trying to get the slides up but it won't work so about 20 minutes into a I guess a 40 minute presentation they finally got the slides working. Years ago Tim that would have I'd have been floored because I'd have been like what am I gonna say everything is on the slides right but thankfully I knew my content I knew my story so I was able to go through without my slides and then once they got it working I was able to quickly calmly you know click advance to it and then show them some of the things that I had mentioned just from stage. Right but the audience didn't really know even though like they knew they were working on the technically everybody could see that in the room but they they were like oh wow we didn't you didn't even really need your slides I mean you you were just so comfortable and all that but that just takes preparation right it you know it's it's preparation practice and and you know we when I was teaching and I would I would ask the students what their process is in preparing for a a five minute presentation or whatever you know doesn't really matter they would tell me the first thing they they would do is open up PowerPoint.

Tim Newman:

I said no that's that's not that's probably the last thing that you should do. Exactly because you might not need it well John doesn't use PowerPoint he doesn't use slides really I mean he he has his his his iPad there and he just he's most of us wish he used PowerPoint so we can so we can write down all the books and take a piss exactly exactly and you know but we've some I mean even as adults we we we are so um I don't know tied into the into the visual like like that's gonna make or break everything and the reality is that doesn't have anything to do with it. What makes or breaks it is you the speaker are you do you are you providing value to the audience do you know who the your audience is have you have you done the work have you done the preparation have you done the practice have you done the things that you need to do to provide that value to the audience yeah so so what what's your process you let's let's say somebody calls you tomorrow you know to to book to book you for a speaking engagement in three months what's your process to go from tomorrow to walking off the stage yeah so the first thing I want to know is what is a what does success actually look like at the end of the day for this audience right so typically if a company is is bringing me in to speak they have a goal in mind of of what they want the audience to do and if they don't I I'm gonna ask them questions to try to get to a goal that way we got something to measure against right so if their goal is that you know they want people just to be inspired or and take more action then we know we have a goal in mind.

unknown:

Right?

Michael Pope:

So begin with the end in mind and then I can work better to figure out okay what framework is going to really help me give them that goal and so I'll outline some type of framework and and typically when I whenever I'm speaking I organize my content in a framework because I'm if I'm giving a 45 minute keynote I have it in a nice framework then that way if I need to cut it because of time I can take out part of the framework and it still flows fine. So I go through that process and then obviously I'm gonna I'm gonna practice the store I'm gonna find like okay what stories can help me connect these points and really make it more relatable to the audience and all that. So I'll I'll go through that whole part of putting the content together and practicing it. And I'll practice my stories if I'm doing anything new like I may take it to a Toastmasters club and practice part of the presentation I've done it a couple times. And then my goal Tim is is to have the content down prior to going to the event. And then that way when I'm at the event especially if it's in person I like to go in and and even on the introvert like I like to go meet people and just connect with the audience a little bit beforehand. Right. Because I'm not thinking about my content I want to think about you know you and your needs why you you know what brings you here to this event where you look what are you hoping to gain today type of thing. Because then once I know that I can get on stage and as part of my process actually before I even get on stage if I'm if I'm coming up like up on a stage behind a curtain I'll look out at the audience one of my mentors taught me this is look at as many people as possible and just send them loving thoughts thinking like hey I love you I'm gonna add value to you today. I love you I'm gonna add value to you today. Right? So I'm just I'm thinking about the audience and then when I get out there of course deliver the content as as rehearsed however still be flexible enough where if I need to engage with the audience or if I need to like ask someone a direct question or something right I can I can still mold that into my presentation so it's so it feels natural. And then my process when I finish so part of my refreshing moment is stopping to celebrate right so you know you get the applause but when I'm walking off stage you know I'll in my mind I'm thinking Michael you did an amazing job right I'm I'm I'm praising myself before I go out and talk to the audience. Right.

Tim Newman:

That and I I think that that piece right there is is really important because it it shifts your your mindset from presenter mindset to to to to to now just back being wow it's it's really good now I can go and be myself interact with people you know for how for however long it is um and and and again I it I think a lot of things that we do that we don't really think about from from a different perspective is all mindset. It's it's it's where are we what what mindset should we be in to do this and what mindset do we need to switch into to go 10 feet from here what whatever that is because it's you can't be in speaker mode when you're interacting with people.

Michael Pope:

Maybe think about your flash or I didn't say this or you know right right because then you that then there's gonna be that disconnect he he's not that he's not that personable person that he looked like up up up on stage right it it's it's it's very different and and then you have that disconnect which is and I used to be like that I'll be honest with right so I used to be like that where someone would say like to Tim and you said hey Michael you did a great job I was like oh no but I forgot to say this or I really wanted to tell the story like this or this example right but so I'm thinking all about me versus you know accepting you know praising you know thanking you for for thinking that I did a great job right exactly instead of me and and and then they know that it wasn't about them with just in the in that half a second they already know that that it you think it was more about you than exactly them and yeah and you've lost you've lost all the credibility that you that you had built up. Yeah and I made them feel bad because they like I went I went up and praised this person now he's telling me how you know that it wasn't good right so some some I'm questioning your judgment exactly you know but it's I I love that you you you talk about the having that framework and that and that preparation because these things don't just happen yeah you know you don't just get up on stage and wing it you don't just go to a meeting and wing it you don't you don't go to an interview and wing it you you have to to be successful at anything it does I don't care what it is yes you have to prepare. Yeah I talked about that a lot in the 16 16 undeniable laws of communication about that the importance of the the practicing and not winging it even if you think even if you've done it a million and one times right you still practice it and and I I keep bringing this back to John you know I I listened to something very recently and it and it comes up a lot.

Tim Newman:

You know so somebody asked him the question what he's thinking about before he right before he goes on stage and he said he's thinking about how he can add value to the audience. He's not thinking about oh do I need to tell this story or that story. He he how is he going to add value? It changes you it does. And and if you I think if you just change your mindset just a little bit and you know do the things that that are going to make you successful and start thinking about how you know the the gifts that you have that can help other people pour pour into other people add value to other people for what for whatever it is right it doesn't really matter what what it is because we all we all have different skill sets we all have different interests but if we can help people get from where they are from point A to point B wherever it is they want to go that's really what what this is about. And uh you have at least at least I think you have to be willing to do the work to be able to do that. Because you can want to help them and you can be selfish about it and say well you just do it like this that doesn't it doesn't really help anybody. You've got to help them the way they want to be helped.

Michael Pope:

Yeah absolutely and you're right you got to do the work too right and and that work happens when you're not getting applause when when you're not on stage in front of people right you you're in a room by yourself and you're practicing your content either it's out loud or you're practicing in your head but you're still going doing the work so that when you do show up on stage everyone knows you did the work. Because it's gonna seem natural.

Tim Newman:

Yeah and that it it it's critical and I I think that you know I talk talk a lot about knowing your audience and what they want what they you know why are they there you know how how can how can you pour into them how how can you give them the value um that that to me is before anything else you know what's you you you you said it what's the outcome what what what do you want what what does success look like but you you have to know that before you even start opening up PowerPoint. Yeah right you know that's like pretty pictures and you know exactly exactly I was I'm I'm actually taking a class right now um about uh uh teaching on Zoom speaking on Zoom oh yeah okay um and I've been doing it for for years but again you know you you want to get better you know you know where are the new techniques and you know we were discussing last night I've got to do a a different kind of presentation I've never done before in at a conference here in in January it's it's only five minutes okay it's and that's I could I say I can do it my sleep but I already know what I want to talk about but I haven't scripted it out yet.

Michael Pope:

It's hard I tell you it's harder to do a five minute talk than it is to do a 45 minute talk.

Tim Newman:

It is it is and that and I and I gotta thank Roddy for that too because you know with these with these three minute ones Exactly that's really that's a lot harder. But it's a it's a what they call a pecha kucha whatever type of yeah I'm familiar with that yeah so and now I have to worry about slides because you get one slide every 15 seconds. One slide every minute or whatever yeah it does it's every 15 seconds yeah so you know for me that's that's a I because I would never even think about the slides.

Michael Pope:

That's like the last I'm I'm thinking about okay this is what I want to talk about but now I've got to think about okay really what I want to talk about and how I'm going to incorporate that into a slide in 15 seconds or or how that that's gonna be challenging but it's it's I think it's gonna be fun it is it it it really is uh but if I would never suggest that to somebody who's given a presentation for the very first time but what would you suggest for for somebody who who for the for uh who lacks confidence for the very first time has to give a presentation what would be your your keys to success or or or steps to success for them yeah I would say record yourself so do it to yourself right so pick up your that's the beauty of the our cell phones right grab your cell phone set prop it up and record yourself delivering it and then go back and watch it but watch it with a non-judging eye and just look at yourself and see how you sound i i you know I did a um so my my oldest son is in a media class where he's working on a podcast and so we recorded his first podcast episode uh on Sunday and we're you know we did the intro we played it back he was like do I really sound like that like yes that's how you sound right I had explained to him different things inner ear and out of here right but but a lot of times a a very a brand new person has never really seen themselves speaking on video and you got to get used to seeing it so that way you can give yourself proper feedback and make improvements.

Tim Newman:

Yes and and it's uh seeing yourself and listening to yourself is is is weird and you got you you have to get over that quick that that's the that's a you you can't harp on that just just get over it and and uh and move on. But let's talk about your your book Doers Win the Day. Yes because I I I'll be honest with you I I I enjoyed that book after I got done crying um thank you it was it was tough because I've been there right may maybe not in that exact uh way that you were but but you know knowing that you should have spoken up and said something and you didn't and you let that time you let it go and understand once you let it go once that time passes there's no getting it back. You don't get it back. You don't get it back. Um but I I I I love the book I love the whole idea of the book and and and it you know to to me the the title says it all yes so what was the what was the process there for you how how did the book come about what was it that that you know you you you're you're you're doing this framework and you're doing you're doing it you're doing and you said and you said well this is what works for me I should share it or was it you know what I I've got I've got to figure out how how I'm going to to do or be or whatever and came up with this and did the book. How was the process?

Michael Pope:

Yeah so I was asked to give a 45 minute keynote back in 2022 this is on a large stage and when I was putting my content together I organized it using duer and I was like oh that that works perfect and so I put that together and I gave that talk and then I started being asked to give other presentations so I would take that DUR framework and I gave it over and over and over and then finally I was like man I really need to make turn this into a book because I did a I did a five minute speech for NSA Ohio as part of a a our graduation type program that we did and that was on be a doer and I was like man if I had my book it would have tied in so well with that right so it's like those missed opportunities I'm like man I I'm giving this speech it'd be better for me to have a book to go along with it and I had a mentor that told me the same thing and said you want to have a book based on your keynote speech and I was like okay yeah I'm gonna do that. So then it was really easy for me to develop it. So once I made a decision to deal with it I put it together in less than a month.

Tim Newman:

Yeah I I I just kind of did I I literally am finishing up doing the exact same thing. Um yeah I I wrote a book about 12 years ago and I said never do it again and then I was on a call now but I I was on a call uh uh with with with Mark Cole and he said something that that just it triggered me it was like that's it and it just happened uh you know and and th those are those are good things it was it was a it was a good trigger you know that's that that's that to me that was that was it was like a key but but with with doers from the day one one chapter that again really resonated with me was the idea of celebrating small wins yes because I I think I think so much and and this def is definitely for me I don't celebrate small wins that's that's not that's not what winners do winners we it's not over till it's over we that's just a step in the process we're not gonna celebrate nothing until it's over and that was my mindset for the longest time um so talk about the whole idea of celebrating small wins and why that's so important to our successes.

Michael Pope:

Yeah it is it's so important because if you wait till you win the Super Bowl to celebrate right if you don't celebrate that first win when you know you you're playing against this team that's just okay right if you don't celebrate that win you're never going to make it to the Super Bowl to celebrate the big win. Right. So that's why it's so important to celebrate every day. And so one of my son you know I mentioned before I have three sons my my 17 year old he's still learning how to drive and so him and I would we'll go out on a regular basis teach him how to drive but I always make sure that we after we're done before we talk about areas of improvement and all that we stop to to recognize what he did well so we can have something to celebrate. Just to reinforce that yes I did this type of thing um and we need that in our lives because a lot of people Tim they'll wait till you know December 31st and they're like and they look back on the year and they're like okay I didn't I didn't hit this goal I didn't hit that goal right there they're focused on what they didn't do versus if every single day if they celebrate hey I I won the day today by doing this I won the day of day by doing this then at the end of the year you've got so many different wins you're gonna feel like you're gonna really see your six your your growth because most of us don't see our growth but once you've if you celebrate it every single day you know you've grown right and and it and it builds up momentum right it builds that momentum just like if you have that negative self-talk that builds that momentum too it's exactly it slows you down you say okay why even try right yeah you'll do that right you know you you you don't do something on Monday and you say well okay I'm I'm just gonna take the week off I'll start again next next week that's just guess what that that turns in I'll start next month which that's well next year July it's July I'll just I'll just start next year you know and and and that's that that's what happens though right I mean you because you're gonna have bad days I mean that's you're there's gonna be days when you don't get things accomplished but you have to be able to look back and say okay well I did get this accomplished I did I did do I did do this or I did do that.

Tim Newman:

And it it's it's about that momentum that builds consistency that that that that that builds that um desire to to to continue uh doing it it's it's just so important and I think we need I think a lot of people need to change mindset.

Michael Pope:

Yeah right so even something like this like I you know I'm gonna I'm gonna applaud myself for having a successful podcast interview because there was a time in my life when I wouldn't have been able to do this. Yeah absolutely you know without being nervous and and feeling like I had to be perfect with every word and yes nobody wants perfect anyway.

Tim Newman:

Exactly right nobody wants nobody wants perfect.

Michael Pope:

So well Michael thank you so much for for spending some time with us again thank you enough where can people connect with you and and find out what you're doing yes a couple places one you can get the book Doers Win the Day you can go to doerswinthhey dot com you can also find it on Amazon and you can also connect with me at michaelpoptraining com.

Tim Newman:

Awesome again thank you so much take care and and uh look forward to catching up with you real soon. Thank you be sure to visit speakwithconfidence podcast dot com to get your free ebook top 21 challenges to public speakers and help over the community you can also register for the forum public speaking always remember your voice is a power changing

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