The Power of Written Communication in Unlocking Career Confidence with Amy Adler

Have you ever wondered how your written communication—resumes, LinkedIn profiles, career documents—can truly reflect who you are and ensure you're projecting the same confidence and authenticity in person as you do on paper? If you’ve found yourself stuck, unsure how to craft your professional story, or if you want your talents and personality to leap off the page and into your interviews, this episode is for you.

Welcome back to Speaking with Confidence! Today, I dive into the art and science of translating your professional story onto paper, a skill just as essential as public speaking. I’m joined by Amy Adler, a nationally recognized career strategist and founder of Five Strengths Career Transition Experts. Amy is an expert in coaching executives and professionals to tell their stories in amazing, impactful ways—helping them shine in written formats and feel truly confident when meeting hiring teams.

Here’s what we covered in this episode:

• How life experiences and regional culture shape communication, both written and spoken
• Why adapting your style to meet people where they are (“The Platinum Rule”) builds trust and connection
• Listening as a superpower for introverts—and transforming introversion into powerful coaching and storytelling
• Building confidence by reframing your career journey as a forward-thinking, impactful story
• Techniques for career transition: defining strategy, setting attainable goals, and building momentum
• The power of authenticity and congruence between your written documents and your real self in interviews
• Advice for young professionals and higher education: letting students tell their whole story, not just check boxes
• Breaking through fear and vulnerability in the job search by seeking expert help—and why it’s a sign of strength, not weakness
• How collaborative coaching and resume writing can transform personal narratives, boost self-belief, and elevate career outcomes

If you’re ready to bridge the gap between your resume and your real, confident self—and learn strategies that make your written communication truly impactful—give this episode a listen. Huge thanks to Amy Adler for sharing her wisdom and experience with such empathy and clarity. And thank you for tuning in to Speaking with Confidence!

Chapters

• 0:00 Setting The Stage: Career Storytelling
• 2:05 Culture, Pace, And Communication Styles
• 5:20 Listening As A Coaching Superpower
• 9:45 Confidence Through Story And Data
• 14:20 Strategy: Past To Target Role
• 19:10 Choosing Realistic Paths And Levers
• 23:50 Truth, Tone, And Industry Language
• 28:20 Aligning Resume And Interview Presence
• 31:40 Rethinking Student Resumes And Length
• 36:00 Fear, Support, And Momentum
• 40:20 Resources, Contact, And Closing

Transcript

Tim Newman: 0:10

Welcome back to Speaking with Confidence, a podcast that helps you build the soft skills that lead to real results. Communication, storytelling, public speaking, and showing up with confidence in every conversation that counts. I'm Tim Newman, a recovering college professor turn communication coach, and I'm thrilled to guide you on a journey to becoming a powerful communicator. Today's guest is Amy Adler. Amy is a nationally recognized career and resume strategist who has spent years helping executives, professionals, and even students tell their stories on paper in a way that gets them noticed. She's the founder of Five Strengths Career Transition Experts, a speaker at national conferences, and a coach who knows how to translate a career into powerful language that actually opens doors. So if you've ever wondered how to make your resume or LinkedIn profile reflect who you really are and how to make sure it matches up with what you say in the interview, this is the episode for you. Amy's here to show us how written communication can be just as impactful as a spoken word. Amy, it's so good to see you. Welcome to the show.

Amy Adler: 1:11

Hello, thank you so much for having me today.

Tim Newman: 1:15

You've lived all over the place, and I I love having people like you on because you know as we travel, we we see things that people who who stay in one location necessarily don't. So how has your your life experiences and and travels influenced the way that you communicate, whether it's in in speaking or writing?

Amy Adler: 1:36

What an interesting question. Um I I think part of it is uh integrating when when you have to integrate into a new place. And as you say, I've lived kind of all over the place, all across the country, from the East Coast to the Inner Mountain West. And and the cultures are very different. So the New York Minute is a real thing. And out in Salt Lake City, things are very slow and um in in a pleasant way. So adapting to the local color, I think, is is really important. Uh if we're seeking to interact with people in a way that they expect to be interacted with. So I think in terms of writing, so that's that's speaking, but in terms of writing, I think one of the things that I have found as a resume writer is that the farther west I seem to go, the less um the less willing people are to shine a light on themselves and showcase themselves and talk about themselves. Um, and the interesting thing is hiring teams don't care where where you live in in that sense. They're not looking for uh you to to be very self-effacing in your communication style when you're applying for a job. So coaxing that out of people and helping them shine has been really terrific.

Tim Newman: 2:59

Yeah, that that's a that's really interesting. Um, because I I I've never thought about that from a writing perspective and and how read regions really approach it. Uh, but I I I can see I can kind of see that, you know, in my travels. Now, I've never lived out west, but I've I've traveled extensively out there and um as you know, like like you say, it's it's way more laid back, it's slower, but I never really thought about that from from a writing perspective of how um, and we'll talk about this here in a second, how maybe we we become become more introverted in our writing as opposed to our speaking. You know. I remember when I moved from I I did my doctorate down in Mobile, Alabama, and when I first got down there, I I it took me a while to adjust. Coming from the Northeast, you know, we you know, we're moving, we're popping, we're you know, we we we think fast, we talk fast. And you go down there, and I remember telling my wife, I've got to plan two hours to go to the grocery store because people will just stop and they'll talk to you. You know, and that that that was was kind of a culture shock uh for for me. So so I kind of get it.

Amy Adler: 4:10

Yeah, I will tell you a story that my husband reported to me when we were living in Minnesota. We just moved there and uh he worked in a building with a fairly tall, like a long elevator ride. And he came home one day and sort of in in astonishment said, I got into the elevator at work today, and somebody I'd never seen before, had no interaction with prior, looked at me, grinned, and said, I quit smoking 10 years ago today. And he said, Congratulations, but he had no idea why this person was revealing this detail. And as we lived there longer, it became very clear that you couldn't go to the grocery store for less than two hours. And you, you know, you were meeting people that you knew in this very small town. Um, and people were very open and very willing to share um kind of what what we thought were extremely personal details with complete strangers, but in the most genuine, kind and loving way.

Tim Newman: 5:04

Right. And it's it's why why why do you think it's not the same from a from a writing perspective? Because that to me that that's just to me, it would seem that we would be more open with with writing, because that's that's to me, that's a a much more personal thing that maybe we don't think people are are gonna see or or or judge like like speaking.

Amy Adler: 5:29

Yeah, you know what? I really don't know. Um, since I I launched my resume writing practice in Salt Lake City, I I kind of only had that perspective, but I was very surprised that in our interactions, in my in my interactions with my clients, I was always the fast-talking one.

Tim: 5:45

Right.

Amy Adler: 5:46

And I had to learn to slow down and and frankly learn to listen better, you know, use those active listening skills in a way that um I I didn't, it's not that I didn't use them, it's just I didn't use them in the same way. And providing a real space, like a space with boundaries for them to say what they wanted to say without that New York interruption all the time, you know, sort of state of being. Um, that I found very normal. Uh I quickly learned was not very normal. So communicating with people the way they expected really helped a lot. And slowing down to the point where I felt I was crawling, speaking the way I am right now is incredibly slow to me. But I think it helps the audience or my audience understand what I'm asking and convinces them in some way that I'm really listening. Um, of course, I would be listening anyway, but showing them.

Tim Newman: 6:47

Yeah, and that and I I also think that that that's a that's a learned skill. So, you know, slow in our if we're not slow in our thoughts, at least we're we're slow in our speech. You know, we're we're we're we're slowing down um how how we come across. And for you know, for me, even though I am from you know the the the northeast, I've always been kind of a slow slower talker because I have to be because of how my brain works, you know, the AD ADHD. If I just spewed out everything that comes into my head, it w it it it wouldn't be good. You know, so so learning how how to slow down and actually communicate the things that you actually want to communicate, and the whole idea that you that you brought up of you know the platinum rule, uh meeting people where they want to be meeted, uh meeting where they want to be meet, meeting people where they want to be met uh is is so important and communicating how they want to be communicated too really does build a much deeper connection with the audience.

Amy Adler: 7:46

And if my goal then is to help people find a way to trust me, uh, which I know has to be extremely difficult. In many cases, we've never met face to face. We don't know each other, we might have a mutual connection. But I have to convince them somehow that I'm on their side, that I'm listening, and that I'm going to do right by them in in one of the most important decisions or or thought processes of their lives. Um, maybe third, let's put it third after finding a life partner and maybe having kids, getting a job is is going to be the next big thing. Yeah.

Tim: 8:20

Right.

Amy Adler: 8:20

So helping helping them feel as comfortable as possible and giving them as much of the floor as they want is key. And um sometimes communicating for me is saying nothing. Just letting them, letting them talk, um, giving them the space, like I said, because that's what they really want. They want to listen to somebody who is empathetic, who's gonna listen, who's gonna turn what they are saying into something compelling for their future audiences. Um I often joke in my first sort of introductory call with people, I talk a lot about how this works and what I'm gonna do and answer their questions, and then almost uniformly, almost uniformly tell them, this is the most I'm ever going to speak. I want to ask you questions and I want this to be your space. And I think people are surprised by that because I don't think many people have had the opportunity to be asked all these questions and then given as much unfettered room as they want to say what they want to say.

Tim Newman: 9:25

Yeah, but because I think you know, most of the time, you know, when when we're having conversations with people, we're waiting for for our turn to talk. We're not actually listening and and trying to um understand uh what the pe whoever it is that we're communicating with, what they're actually saying. And you know, when you when you come across somebody uh like like you who, especially in in the professional setting, you're trying to help them. If you don't listen, there's no way that you can help them. If you don't let them say the things that they need to say or get across the things that they need to get across, there's really no way that you can truly help them, you know, meet the goals that that they're that they're trying to meet.

Amy Adler: 10:06

And it also gives them a chance to maybe for the first time ever talk about these things that are in their heads, their experiences, their goals, their hopes for themselves, and and launch that discussion so that this is the first time they're having this discussion, but certainly not the last. Because I think the worst time to start that conversation with with yourself or to prepare what you want to say, the worst time to start that is actually in the interview. Because that's the that's a recipe for panic. And nobody wants that. And I certainly don't want that for the the job seekers who are engaging me to help them do better than than they could do on their own.

Tim Newman: 10:45

Yeah, yeah. And you know, you you and me are are are very similar in in a lot of things. Um, you're an introvert and so am I. And here's here's where I think we differ a little bit. Uh you love public speaking. I I I like it. I you know, it's a to me, I wouldn't say it's a necessary evil. I I like it, but um you love it. And and how how is being an introvert uh really influence your your style of coaching and resume writing? Because again, you know, transferring who we who we seem to be outwardly, even as an introvert, and transferring that into the written form, it's it's truly an art form.

Amy Adler: 11:24

So I think there's that's a whole bunch of questions, I feel like. Um sorry. No, no, it's good. Um, but I will tell you, so when I was a kid, getting up and doing the book report in front of the classroom or whatever it was was torture. I genuinely had, you know, shaking knees and quavering voice. I was terrible at presenting, and I'm sure I looked like I was having a terrible time because I was. Um, but something really exciting happened to me as I became an adult, and particularly in business school. Um, so I was an introvert my whole life, and that didn't change. And I definitely recharge slowly um and expend energy fast, right? Um, but in in business school, we had to present so much that it was almost a weekly thing. And I just got used to it. And all of a sudden I realized it wasn't quite as scary as I had thought it was in the past. And I really, I was, I was genuinely terrified, whether from a sense of um introversion or at that point shyness or just the sense that I felt like everyone was judging me. And I'm sure they weren't because people are never as interested in you as they are in themselves. I definitely know that now. Um, but it became this I loved having this sense of command over the room and to share what I knew and to feel like an expert. Um, so taking that expertise and and shifting that to a one-on-one conversation or that sense of excitement around talking to people, it's kind of the same thing. Um, not just fewer people, right? Um so shifting that um to a one-on-one interaction and using that um, I think you know, the superpower of introversion, like listening and mirroring somebody. Um I didn't know that was a thing. Um, I think I read it in it might have been in quiet. I don't know if you got the book. Um about what it means to be an introvert and what it means to have that as a superpower, but um to to interact with people the way they're interacting with you, so they feel more comfortable like you're listening to them. And then absolutely blowing that up on paper and and taking what somebody might think as uh their story is very ordinary and turning it into something so magical and so special and so profound and so impactful, uh, helps them get out of that space too and gets them away. I don't know whether they're gonna be introverts or or not. I'm most of the time my clients are introverts just because I think the people I attack, but getting them away from being shy, which is a totally different thing, being self-effacing, being the person who wants to hide all the time and saying, look what I did. I turned this career of mine into something people need. And I'm using it, sort of using a resume writer, using this vehicle, this thing that I that I do for them. And as a job seeker, they I can say, if I'm the job seeker, I can say, yeah, I got some help, but look how good this looks. Look how competent I look, and I feel so much more excited and uh kind of in my center of power to go and showcase all the things that I know how to do. So I hope I'm giving them the um, not just the the letter, but the spirit, if you will, of um owning their story and helping them get out of um wanting to be self-affacing and wanting to be um quiet. And I I can't change whether they're gonna be introverted or shy.

Tim Newman: 14:50

Right. Um and I don't want to because I that's that's that's just who we are, right? And that's just who we are. Yeah.

Amy Adler: 14:57

So if I if I can, if I am comfortable with that and say, I know who you are, I understand where you're coming from, but here is where you are so amazing at what you do. Please use this language, please use these stories because they tell something so compelling about you that people just can't ignore. I think that's that's how that converts. Um and people feel, I hope, like they've learned something about themselves, um, whether it's literally the stories they've already had stored in their heads, or frankly, just a way to tell those stories.

Tim Newman: 15:30

Yeah. Do you have a story where you know you you you take somebody like you just described, and they they've truly blossomed and truly kind of grew into who they are and shined as as the introvert or the shy person and going on to truly embrace that and be successful?

Amy Adler: 15:51

So well, I I can't say about the uh the one I'm thinking of is such a new story. It's probably in the last two to three weeks. So there there is no end to the story yet. We don't know how it's gonna roll out. Um but somebody who felt kind of beat down in their job, I'm thinking of. And they've been at their company for a couple decades, like a while, had multiple roles, did some pretty spectacular stuff, but felt kind of marginalized, I think is the best way to put it. And that they didn't recognize their own zone of genius. And I think when they saw the really the first draft of the resume, there really weren't too many revisions on it. When they saw the first draft of the resume, um, I just got an email, so I didn't I didn't talk to the person about it at that time, but I got this sort of like wow message. I I had no idea there was a way to encapsulate all the things I had done and make this forward-looking rather than um sort of saddened retrospective. I don't know what what else to call it. Um, and and to kind of get the guy out of their funk, right? Like out of their, out of the the boundaries or the the lane they had set for themselves to say, well, this is all I can do, this is all I I ever was, and I must have hit my peak some time ago. I don't I really don't think that's true. Um, and helping them see their magic is is so great. Um I will also tell a story. This is way back in the beginning of my resume writing career, and I've been doing this now like 16, odd years. Um, it was for an HR person, and she um I don't remember if it was an email or a phone call, but I remember the language because it was so striking and kind of humorous. Um so she's an HR, so she does all the functions of HR, including hiring and all that stuff. She said, I don't know who this girl is, but I think I have to hire her. And I was like, wow, we we won. That's awesome. We absolutely won. And it made me feel so good that you know, I changed her perspective on herself. Um and that's really what I hope to do because there's so much to going into the process with confidence and and feeling that special spark that I think is contagious.

Tim Newman: 18:06

It it it really is, and I I love that because you know if if we think about the whole job search process, we we do try and and cramp everything it is into, you know, depending on your your career, whatever, a one to two page, this is what I've done, this is who I am, and it's it's very bland, it's very uh like you said, not forward thinking. And you look at it, you say, okay, I've accomplished this stuff, but so what? I mean, it's not it it doesn't really empower us, but to be able to to to do what you do for people to see who they are, to feel good about those types of things, changes the mindset to go in to even thinking about preparing to go into an interview. It's not, well, I just I've done these things, uh, okay, it doesn't really mean anything, but change that mindset to uh to feel good about it and to develop the stories to be able to tell in that interview that's gonna make these people shine.

Amy Adler: 19:12

It's so lovely when that happens. Uh and I think people don't don't come into the resume writing process with anything more, kind of as you said, uh, with anything more than the notion of, well, I need this piece of paper because I have to go give it to somebody. Um, and and the default mode is always, let me just write down what HR thinks my job is. And that's absolutely like, well, okay, 99% of the time, never the case. Sometimes it is. But um, I'd say in in the main, it's it's people taking what HR has told them or what their boss has told them they need to be doing and finding a new way to make them make themselves successful in that position. And then because they've they've owned what they are doing, they can talk about the ways they have done things that no one else has ever done before. And I think the biggest mistake in that sense that people make is assuming that anyone in the role would have done it this way. And I've heard that more than once. Uh that people are like, well, of course I would do this, you know, I would have done this or would have taken this particular project on or done it this way, because that was what was what the job was. And I was like, no, that's what you did in the job. The job is what HR said. You know, you show up and you do this thing and you're you report to this person, you have this team, or whatever it is. You decided to make something new out of it. So let's talk about how you did that.

Tim Newman: 20:33

Yeah, that that's a that's a truly, truly interesting point. Um Yeah, I I I've never thought about it that way. Um, I I I I think I may have approached it that way, but but but to putting it like that, because we we all we all do approach and think about things differently, but not necessarily from the from the job perspective or or the or the task perspective even. Um that that's a that's a really interesting point.

Amy Adler: 21:02

I appreciate you're saying so. And I I think that's what the same reaction that I get from my clients is I just literally never thought about it this way before. I literally never thought about it this way. So I get the privilege then of reflecting back to them exactly what they're saying to me. You know, I can't make anything up, but I certainly don't want to. But to push a little harder and say, so who else benefited from this?

Tim Newman: 21:25

Right.

Amy Adler: 21:26

Who did you have to loop in to make this a viable, you know, ongoing concern or whatever the question might be? Or something as simple as so that automation that you built, what did it replace? And how you know, how long did it used to take? And how long does it take now? And they're like, oh yeah, you know, it used to take a week and you know, five people, and now it takes two days and three people, you know, something like that. And and people are, uh, my clients sometimes don't make that connection.

Tim Newman: 21:53

Right.

Amy Adler: 21:54

And I love, I love connecting those dots for them.

Tim Newman: 21:56

And and and then to you, you know, you take that and you build it build that into the story during an interview, and now you've shown real value. Right.

Amy Adler: 22:04

Right. And I think the the win there is a the confidence that comes with being able to tell these stories in a competent way, sort of beginning, middle, end, here's the win, but also to show to your audience, the people who are doing the hiring, that you are intentionally de-risking their hiring process. You're saying, I have done what you need before. So because I've done it before, I can show you how well it uh, you know, how good it turned out. And I can promise you I'll do the same kinds of things for you in the future. So the situation might not be identical, but if there's a process that needs to be fixed, well, I did this when it was seven days and now it's two, or whatever I said, um, and it was five people and now it's, you know, X people and so much time has been saved. You probably have a different process, but I understand the mechanism for making that happen. And you can absolutely count on me to do that into the future. And they're like, oh, this person's already done this. I don't have to explain the value of a lean operation or the the way this works. And I can just give them the context and the things, the tools that we have, and let them go and let them do the thing that they're hired to do and that they can do best. And that's a very um compelling sense of confidence, I think, and the on the part of the hiring team.

Tim Newman: 23:18

Yeah. And and my guess is this all kind of leads back to the overall strategy of um building the content of of the resume. I I I guess that's where where you really start, right? Would that be a correct assumption?

Amy Adler: 23:37

So yes, but the the resume strategy has to has really two pieces. If you can think about the resume as being in the middle, everything that came before is their history. Where they want to go is over here. So this document is supposed to connect those two things. So knowing all the things you have done or or being able to talk about them or or uncover them in the process, and knowing exactly where you want to go makes that resume a marketing document, not just a laundry list of stuff you've done. And that is so much more effective.

Tim Newman: 24:12

100% agree, but how do we figure out how do you figure out what the strategy is though, right? I mean, because I I'm just thinking about it, you know, for to you know, take me for as a for example. You know, I I've kind of got an idea of things I want to do. I definitely know what I've done, but I'm not really sure on how how I'm going to get to you know point B based on things that I've done. How how do you help somebody to d define or develop that strategy? Because that that to me you've you've already opened your eyes in their eyes in in in deter in in in how they view themselves and the things that they've done. Now, how do you get them to to to develop that strategy moving forward, if if that makes sense?

Amy Adler: 25:09

It absolutely makes sense, and it's an extremely important question, and I'm glad you raised it. So I say I'm an executive resume writer or resume writer and career coach. Career coach is a pretty expansive term.

Tim: 25:24

Right.

Amy Adler: 25:25

There are some people who are career coaches who don't write resumes, and there's some people who are career coaches because they have to be because they write resumes, and I think I fall into that category. Um I frankly wouldn't be the right person for someone to say, I have no idea what I want to do, not a clue, I haven't thought about it, and I just know it's nothing I've done before. That's too big of a question for somebody who is operating in the space that I'm operating in. But if somebody says, I've done all these things, I know I'm good at it, uh, so here's my body of work, so to speak. And in the future, uh, I'd like to work in this adjacency or in the same kind of role but a different comp or a different uh industry. This is something I can work with. Or they might say, I'd like to do something in a different industry and in a slightly different role. Is that possible? And I'm always kind of navigating this with my clients and saying, well, you can pull as many levers as you want, but the more levers you pull on this, the harder it's going to be for your resume alone to make this compelling argument. We can do what we can, but we can't change who you are and what you've done. We can only reframe it.

Tim: 26:30

Right.

Amy Adler: 26:31

So when they get to that point, I want them to share with me job postings that they might be interested in. And this is just a series of thought experiments. It's free. There's there's no cost to doing this other than time. And I think it's such a worthwhile exercise because it does a couple of things. It enables people to follow whatever path they want to follow, whatever thought process they want to follow as many times as they want to do it. So they could say, well, I'm gonna look at um path A through path, you know, Q, and then start narrowing stuff down. That's just time to do that. Uh and if they say, Well, I want to be a dentist, but they've never gone to dental school or they didn't study science. Well, but then I have to say, okay, fine, you might want to do this. And maybe the first plan is to get you to dental school. And if you want to do that, what do we need to do to make sure you can do that? That's literally never happened before. That's just a hyperbolic example. But um, I did have one young guy call me at one point um who was, I think, a year or two out of college, who insisted he wanted to be um a CEO uh for 500,000 a year. I didn't know how he was gonna do that. And I pretty much told him uh, like this this is a great aspiration for you. And it I'm sure it will happen someday down the road. It's just not gonna happen now. It's not gonna happen today. So, what can we do that's gonna get you where you want to go? That's the next stepping stone. Um, but let's say we have a reasonable solution set of job postings, and you know, three or four or five maybe. The goal is to have them all look the same, mostly the same, because this tells us two things. One is that the job the person's looking for, that kind of a job exists. So we're not making stuff up here in this market. I don't think we have the privilege right now, anyway, of making our own way into jobs. Um, they usually have to be out there and somebody has to be hiring for them. That could change. It's it was different in the past. I just think the market now is a little bit tighter. So um, so the job exists. And the job exists in sufficient quantity, like I said, two, three, four, five, that it'll exist again. So this resume is um something that somebody can use into the future. So if they don't get an interview for that very first one, it's not like they're all hope is lost and they have to start over. They have this very um thoughtfully prepared, targeted resume that they can use to lots of jobs that are like this. And and having people do that research gives them a framework to say, this is what I want, this is what I don't want, this is what I never want to do again. And here's where I think it matters, here's where I think I can make a difference. Um, and even if the job is um the the job postings are are scattered across the country, I don't care about that. Because I uh apart from particularly regionally specific roles, the jobs will show up again in some similar way because HR broadly has already thought these things out and we're just taking advantage of the fact that they've done all this research already. So they they now have a a goal that's kind of written down, um, more uh solidified than it was before. Because I want a new job is pretty scary, but I want this job in this industry, that's pretty doable. That feels much more manageable and it it intentionally sets constraints on the process so people can do what what they want to be doing, as opposed to be uh you know, flailing, guessing worrying.

Tim Newman: 30:01

Yeah, and I I guess it it also seems uh not not only doable but but but the small wind it seems like it's it's in reach. It's it's not uh like you said, it's not the five hundred thousand dollar CEO role. Um that okay, yeah, like you said it's aspirational. Yeah, the the industry I come from I was in I was in the sport industry and I had students who said they wanted to be the general manager of you know you know pick a team. I said that's great. I I you know let's let's figure out how we're gonna get you there, but you know, there are only 32 you know major league baseball general managers. You're th 32 possible. You're not just gonna walk out of here and go into that role. You know, there's there's things that you would need to be do to to do. And while that that goal is out there, let's let's focus on some attainable stepping stones first. You know, get that first huge huge win, get that next win. And you know, that's what really, you know, from my perspective, that that's something that really really builds confidence and momentum, not only focusing on this and failing, failing, failing, because two years down the road you don't you haven't reached that yet.

Amy Adler: 31:11

Yeah, I think that's true. I think being uh realistic but also aspirational kind of sets the the direction and the pace. And just if something doesn't happen today, it doesn't mean it won't happen in the future.

Tim Newman: 31:25

Right. Right. You know, and you know, when we talked before, you you you told me a story about you know your your client um who asked about a resume and and uh he was going into prison. To to me that that that's that's a really powerful story because because they're they're already thinking, okay, when I'm done, things are gonna be different.

Amy Adler: 31:52

I I genuinely hope that's what happened. Um I kind of lost a follow-up, as they say. Uh this person was genuinely concerned about what was going to happen when when he got out. Um and he knew he wasn't gonna have access when he was inside, right? Um and he certainly had plenty of skills. Uh this this was not a violent criminal. This was somebody who behaved badly um and and got called on the carpet for it. Um but he he was seemed like a nice guy. He had um a lot to offer and he wanted to prepare himself. I mean, I think that's an extreme, um, to be honest. I haven't worked with maybe maybe more than two or three people who were working against a sort of systemic issue like that. Um most people show up and they just don't know how they're going to make the um the next step. I won't even call it a leap, but just the next step between where they are to the thing that they maybe should be doing next. Maybe it's for better money, better work-life balance. Maybe it's uh because they want a new challenge, or maybe they want to step back from a challenge. I recently worked with somebody who I thought I was surprised because I guessed. Oh, you must want to be doing this in your next role. He said, No, I'm at the end of my career. I love what I'm doing. I just want to keep doing it and know that I can contribute and be okay being in in this particular situation, kind of the number two guy in the department, not the number one guy, because I'm good at it and it's rewarding in its own way. So people just have to know what they want and how they're gonna get to move forward.

Tim Newman: 33:38

Yeah, and I as I'm as I'm listening to you, I'm I'm thinking my guess is most people go through the through this at some point in their life, right? The the uneasiness, the unknowing, the the trepidation of what am I gonna do, how am I gonna get there? And it's they're they're not alone. It's it's I I I think no knowing that you're not alone and knowing that there are people out there that that can help you and being willing to to reach out and and actually ask for that help is uh is huge and important. And I I I think that um if people would understand that reaching out and asking for help is not a weakness, it's it's really a strength, and that uh most people, if you reach out and ask for help, they're going to help you. Or they're going to direct you to somebody who can help you. If if I can't help you, I'm not gonna say I can help you, but that's not my that's not my area. But let me let me connect you to this person over here. They could they could probably help you. And if they can't, they'll they'll they'll direct you to whoever. But I think most people have been in this situation before. If not, they will be.

Amy Adler: 34:57

I appreciate your saying this. Um I I hope there's no stigma in asking for help for something you do maybe twice in your life or three times in your life. Um there's plenty of things I don't know how to do, right? I don't know how my my car functions under the hood. Like I just don't. Like, you know, I can I can I can do a handful of things, I can't do all of it. Right. Um and I don't feel like it's a shameful thing to ask. Um, you know, I go to the dentist like everyone else does because they know stuff, you know, when um something happens, you know, I go seek out a professional. But I think people think about this differently. But if we turn it all around and say, and I work with senior level players most of the time, not all the time, I've worked with kids as young as high school and they're awesome. But if I'm looking at sort of management all the way through, sort of the top echelons, these are people who are accustomed to hiring really smart teams, talented, capable people every day for their companies. And whether they hire one person or 50 people, they're saying, I trust you, my team down, you know, yeah, where you're sitting, I trust you to do this better than I could. That's why I brought you on. I thought I could do it better or faster, I wouldn't hire you.

Tim: 36:13

Right.

Amy Adler: 36:13

But I'd like to see people translate that to hiring experts in other realms. I do this every single day, certainly more times in a week, maybe, than some people do in a lifetime. So I'm here to offer that expertise and say, I've traveled this road. I'm pretty sure I know what works. I want to get to know you so I can take what I know, shape it to what you need, and then you can go be successful.

Tim: 36:40

Right.

Amy Adler: 36:40

And there shouldn't be, I don't think, that stigma of I had to get somebody to help me tell my story. Because when was the last time you did it? That was probably never.

Tim Newman: 36:50

Exactly. Yeah. So so now let's take this, take this step forward. So we have we have it, the resume, we have the written document. How do you how do you make sure that the written and the verbal actually match the person? Because to me, that is so incredibly important. I've hired I've hired people, I looked at the resume, and then I talked to them, I said, wait a second, there's something's not adding up here.

Amy Adler: 37:16

Okay. Foundationally. And I don't know if this is exactly what you're saying to start, but it this has to be part of the conversation. Foundationally, the responsibility for being truthful is on the job seeker.

Tim: 37:30

Right.

Amy Adler: 37:30

I I can't tell if they're telling the truth. I mean, I sometimes I can guess. It's only happened maybe once or twice, and I've been suspicious. Um if it's something I can corroborate by just looking at you know what's publicly available in the news, I'm gonna do that. I want to make sure. And then I'm gonna ask those questions. Like, well, it looks like the company went bankrupt in 2012. What happened after that? Something like that. You know, you didn't mention it, but you were obviously in doing A, B, and C during that time. What do we have to say? And if they don't talk about it, maybe there's a reason. And if it's just not relevant, maybe there's a reason. Um, so that's the that's foundational to every project. And like to the point where it's like in my terms and conditions, like you have to tell me the truth. And my obligation on the flip side is I'm not gonna make anything up. I'm I'm not gonna fabricate. But let's say that's if that's a given, that's already taken care of. So then if that's not the mismatch that you're talking about, I have written resumes for people who for whom English is not their first language, but their skills are phenomenal and their expertise is really good. I'm thinking of um, I want to say he was uh an accountant or a finance guy in a company. I forget exactly what he did. I think it was accounting. Um, but he had grown up and gotten his education somewhere else. Didn't make his expertise any less, right, you know, powerful. But writing in English just wasn't a strength. Um so he wasn't probably going to sound in person the way his resume sounded, but his expertise, it was so clear that he could talk about every single point.

Tim: 39:10

Right.

Amy Adler: 39:11

Uh, but there's other situations, and maybe this is where you were going. And I think that's a very, by the way, a very legitimate way to engage a resume writer, to say, tell my story because I need to talk to an audience and you're gonna be better at this in my language skills. Um, you know, this is my second or third language, you know, this is your first. Um but I think in the sense that people use specific language in their way of speaking and in their industries, particularly, I have to be able to take that and say, this is what I think you're trying to say here. And please correct me if I'm wrong. So writing a resume is not this, it's not like you're writing something in blood and it's immutable, or that I can't take it. I've been writing and editing for over 30 years. This is professionally speaking. So if I can't take being edited, I'm in the wrong industry. And I do believe in the power of collaboration. And if somebody says, we would never use such and such phrase, we only use the acronym. I think I might stand my ground and say, let's spell it out once and then use the acronym throughout. It makes more sense. That's how people are going to know it, whatever the thing is. Or we never call it, uh, I don't know, whatever it is. We never call it this. We we use this phrase because this is uh the way our industry thinks about this. Great. Educate me, tell me how you want this. And hopefully by this point, I've I would have gotten the message. Um, but even if it's in the very last round, I am all ears and I want people to tell me what they think and to work with me to make this thing, uh, this document the best thing it can be and the most compelling story it can tell. So there's there's no um fences that I'm putting up, or there's no um sense of being insulted about um how I'm conveying what I'm I'm putting on paper. I want people, like I, I it's it's very hard to to put me down. Um and I think the only way anybody could possibly, you know, offer that kind of insult is to say, I don't like this, but I don't know why, and you're not fixing it. And well, none of this is actually, well, people can say they don't like it. There's no part of me that wouldn't jump right in, drop everything, and fix something. Usually it's something else. It's not, I don't like this. It's I don't understand.

Tim: 41:34

Right.

Amy Adler: 41:34

Or um, am I really that good? I get that a lot. Um, but it's never um, you know, Amy made something up about me and I don't understand why. Um so I'm really here to to engage over and over again, loop back until it's so buttoned up and so tight that it's it's a powerful message and the person feels very, very comfortable sending it out to the world.

Tim Newman: 42:06

Yeah, and I I I just think that you know the congruence is is so important because again, you know, when we when we hire people, at least in in my in my view, we're we're not hiring a resume, we're not hiring um, you know, we're we're hire we're hiring a a person that we're that we're bringing into our team. And like you said, that we're hiring somebody because of who they are and what the skills that they bring and the knowledge that they bring in the and you know who they are to to make our team, our organization better. Right. Um and if if there's not that congruence, um they're not gonna it it's it's just not gonna work because we're gonna the expectations won't won't align um what one way or the other. So I I just think it's so so important for for for for job seekers to make sure that you're as authentic as you possibly can be in everything that comes out of you. So that it's it's it's really obvious.

Amy Adler: 43:11

Um that enthusiasm comes through too. Yeah, exactly. All those things.

Tim Newman: 43:16

Exactly. And and so that that kind of leads me to to another point. Um you know, I've spent almost uh my entire adult career, you know, in um higher education. What what is it that what is it that that higher education and career centers are I I think they're missing the boat, but I can't really I can't really put my finger on it because I I don't think we're preparing uh you know students in c in in higher ed to to truly be ready with to to career ready with their with their um resume writing, interview skills, that type of thing. What what can they be doing differently to better prepare us our our students?

Amy Adler: 44:06

This is uh such a multifaceted question. And and and and to be fair, my my I mean I've seen what I've seen. Um haven't been in higher education for low these many years myself. Um but having worked with students, I think the biggest um change that if I if I, you know, if I could wave a magic wand and say all career centers should offer this, I think to get away from the notion that all resumes, especially for young kids, um in this context, all resumes have to be one page, like with no context. That's um fitting everybody into the same box. And not everybody fits in the same box. And not everybody, even senior level people, not everybody needs a resume that is two pages or sometimes three. I once wrote a resume for a guy 25 years in the same company. It was a one-page resume because they had one job for 25 years. It was totally fine. But I've written resumes for for future college kids, uh, college kids, people get kids getting their first jobs. And they've done so much, they're so engaged that their resumes are two pages.

Tim: 45:19

Yeah.

Amy Adler: 45:20

And you know what? That was two pages of concrete information, right? Real stuff about these exciting or excited, you know, young minds ready to do the next thing. And forcing them to one page would have been completely unfair.

Tim Newman: 45:37

Right.

Amy Adler: 45:38

So let them tell their story. Um, let them tell their story in a way that a a more elevated or or older professional might tell the their story to you, because that's where they're trying to go. And to say, with all of their documentation, oh, all I've done is go to college. It's does them such a disservice.

Tim Newman: 45:58

It does. It does.

Amy Adler: 45:59

Because they have volunteerism, they have work study, they have summer jobs, they have internships, um, they have volunteer stuff abroad, they they learn languages, um, they program in the projects uh on the computer in their classes, they they um develop uh consulting projects, it all kinds of things have happened.

Tim: 46:21

Yeah.

Amy Adler: 46:22

Um so why not let them tell us, me as a resume writer, but I mean like us as adults, as as as you know, professionals, let them tell us what they're good at and why we should listen to them.

Tim Newman: 46:37

I'm so glad that you said that because I I I've been saying for a few years that you know the generation, the younger generation, I don't even know what we're calling it these days, but the younger generation is to me, they're so much smarter and so much more entrepreneurial than they've ever been. And they just don't know how to encapsulate that and communicate it. Um and like you said, try trying to force when I'm trying to get them to open up and share about who they are, trying to force all that into one page, it it's count to me is counterintuitive. So I'm I'm so glad that you said that.

Amy Adler: 47:16

I think what I find frustrating, thank you. First of all, thank you for saying so. What I find frustrating is this sort of um conventional wisdom that nobody has time to read two pages. And I don't think I hope that's not true, because the people who are reading the resumes are probably owning two-page or maybe three-page resumes. Right. So it's it's somewhat hypocritical. Um and and I don't even but I don't even know if it's true. I I um I think if the the stories in the resume, whatever they are, are compelling and the presentation is clean and easy to read, and we're not going to, you know, nine-point type because nobody needs to see that.

Tim Newman: 47:53

Um I won't be able to read it. I wouldn't be able to read it, honestly.

Amy Adler: 47:58

No, no, no. But why not add, you know, but how we say it, like add some air to the document, like space things out, make it readable, make the type a little bit bigger. Give your meet your audience where they are. What do they need to know about you? And to constrain well, anybody into one page. Um it's an interesting exercise in conciseness, but I don't know if it's anything else besides that.

Tim Newman: 48:28

Yeah, I I I I I I agree. And you know, it it it just leads me to to the next thought in my in my head, you know. You and I have spent our entire adult careers helping people. That's what we do. Right? That's that's when when you break it down to the to the bottom level, that's what we do. We we we we help people, we we try and add value to people. What's the hardest part in your mind of helping people? Especially when it comes, you know, to people being stubborn or not being coachable. What's uh what's the hardest what's the hardest part for you?

Amy Adler: 49:11

That people come sort of pre like primed with fear. They are terrified, and rightly so, especially in this economy. People are getting laid off left, right, and center. They are often in unexpected and painful ways. Um they have families and rent and car payments and food bills, electricity, like really that foundational. Uh I don't know what the the going figure is. You know, most people are like two or three paychecks away from homelessness, right? And people come in legitimately, absolutely terrified. And that is the hardest part to break through because what seems very normal to me, like I do this every day, kind of like when I was saying before, you know, I do this every day, all you know, multiple times a week. This is my domain. I feel very comfortable here. Most people don't do this but two, three, four times in their lives. And they have no idea what the right thing to do is. And there's so much in the way of bad advice and scam artists out there who haven't done the training and are just looking to make a quick buck. That's not what this is. This is resume writing. Uh, just for people who are listening, resume writing is a practice that is closely held by many, many people who do the training, who do the work, learn every day to do right by their clients. And we're not here to take advantage of anybody. So if we can get people to understand that we are on their side, that we're here completely devoted to them. And if you trust that we will care for you and your story and tell it the way you deserve to have it told, maybe that will take some of that edge off. Maybe that will help you um not have such a stranglehold on it, even though I know you're out there terrified.

Tim: 51:15

Yeah.

Amy Adler: 51:16

And and understand our promise, my promise, that whatever you need, I will help you. And my phone is always on. And I promise that to people because I never want them to feel alone. Because this is weird. I mean, if I were dropped in their job tomorrow with no con, you know, context or experience, I'd be terrified too.

Tim: 51:34

Right.

Tim Newman: 51:35

Right.

Amy Adler: 51:36

But let me be let me be that support structure.

Tim Newman: 51:39

That that's that's so that's so powerful to under understand. Um, you know, especially when um you're you're in a place of vulnerability. Yeah, you you may still be in a position, but it's not a good position, or you may not have a position and you're really vulnerable because, like you said, you could be a month away from being homeless. Uh-huh. And and you it's the the the stress and the pressure is it's incredible. I mean, I've I've been there. I I know what it's like. And you know, you you want to make sure that you're control you think that you can control everything to get you where you need to be, but you need to let some of that control go because there are people out there who can help you get to where you want to be if you just allow it to happen.

Amy Adler: 52:28

And and people who are who don't believe they are successful until you, the job seeker, is successful. So it might might be kind of a an unusual way of looking at the logic. But we're not just here to, you know, churn out words and hope they come out okay.

Tim: 52:48

Right.

Amy Adler: 52:48

We're here to help in in such a way that we intern, I don't I don't know a single resume writer who doesn't feel this way, we internalize the success of our clients. Um and if if that's not happening, we're gonna bend over backwards. Yeah. Um, in a way that as much as hiring teams are full of amazing people, because some of them are my clients, right? I know that they've hired plenty of people, and recruiters also have an incredible skill set that I promise you I don't claim to have. Um everybody has different obligations.

Tim: 53:19

Right.

Amy Adler: 53:19

Um, the hiring teams have obligations to their groups, the or the companies, and the recruiters have obligations to their contractual arrangements with the companies. My obligation is to my job seeker, to my client. I don't, I like to say, I don't care what job you want until you tell me what you want. And then I'm 110% in and I will follow you to the ends of the earth to help you get there. Because my obligation is to you, and I want you to be happy and successful and fulfilled. And when it goes absolutely bang on according to plan, it's phenomenal. Oh, you know, just this last week, um, I guess it was five days ago, six days ago now, finish an update for a former client. Um, and she's like, I found this amazing job. I have to apply for it. Can we do this, you know, yesterday? I was like, all right, you know, let's let's rearrange my schedule and see what I can do. Um, she had the interview in four days, five days.

Tim Newman: 54:13

That's awesome.

Amy Adler: 54:14

Hasn't happened yet. So I I don't know, I don't know how it went, but because it it's not and won't be take place for a couple more days. But um, that is the the like a crystallization of how this is supposed to go. Will it happen every time? No. Have I seen it before this week? Absolutely. Um I think in the mean, people put the the work in, they understand their brand, they know what they're standing for, they apply for jobs that they think they'd be amazing at, and they go and they nail it.

Tim Newman: 54:42

Well, Amy, that that's all I think that's a that's a perfect way to end it. Thank you so much for spending some time with us. Where can people connect with you um to get their resumes and and and written communications done?

Amy Adler: 54:55

Thank you. So I'm on LinkedIn all the time, and my handle is Amy L. Adler. Um, also you can find my website, which is fivestrengths.com. That's f-i-v-e s-t-r-en-g T H S dot com. And if you're interested in a complimentary, completely complimentary review of your resume or your LinkedIn profile, feel free to pick a time uh to chat with me at fivestrengths.com slash let's chat.

Tim Newman: 55:24

Amy, thank you so much for joining us. You you've provided uh so much valuable information and taught me so much in this in this time, and I can't thank you enough for that. And so so uh take care and we'll talk to you soon.

Amy Adler: 55:36

Thank you so much.

Tim Newman: 55:39

Be sure to visit speakwithconfidence podcast.com to get your free ebook, the top twenty-one challenges for public speakers, and how to overcome them. You can also register for the Forum for Public Speaking course. Always remember your voice is a power changer. We'll talk to you next time. Take care.