Speaking With Confidence

Overcoming Fear on Stage: Why Every Speaker Should Try Stand-Up Comedy with John Ball

• Tim Newman • Season 1 • Episode 93

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Have you ever wondered if charisma is something you’re born with, or if it can be built—and more importantly, how it impacts your confidence and effectiveness as a communicator? In this episode of Speaking with Confidence, I sit down with John Ball, a keynote and presentation coach who’s spent years helping speakers, coaches, and leaders boost their influence from competent to captivating. Today, we dig into the journey of finding your authentic voice as a speaker, the joys and challenges of adding humor to presentations, and the real value of showing up with warmth and confidence, wherever you are in the world.

John Ball brings a wealth of knowledge and experience to the table—not only as the host of The Present Influence Podcast and co-host of the Coaching Clinic podcast, but also as a professional speaker on topics like personal mastery and leadership communication. His global perspective as someone who’s lived in both the UK and Spain and spent years as a flight attendant puts him in a unique position to discuss connecting with different cultures, and how traveling has shaped his approach to communication and coaching.

In this episode, we cover:

  • How traveling and working abroad expands your communication skills and comfort zones
  • Using humor and warmth as universal connectors across cultures
  • Why every speaker should try stand-up comedy at least once
  • The difference between charisma and charm—and how to spot “fake” charisma
  • Techniques to build genuine charisma (even if you’re not naturally extroverted)
  • The process of testing and refining stories for presentations
  • Emotional leadership and the responsibility you hold as a speaker
  • Why presence and vulnerability matter more than perfection
  • How to avoid charisma killers like overthinking and ego
  • The importance of living with intention and making positive choices in how you show up
  • Stage time as the single most effective way to improve your communication
  • Storytelling tips: focusing on transformation, emotional flow, and audience engagement

If you’re ready to take your communication from competent to captivating—and want to put more humor, warmth, and charisma into every conversation that counts—this episode is packed with stories, strategies, and encouragement to get you started. Ready to step up, lighten up, and speak with more confidence than ever before? Listen now, and let’s grow together.

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Tim Newman:

Welcome back to Speaking with Confidence, a podcast that helps you build the soft skills that lead to real results. Communication, storytelling, public speaking, and showing up with confidence in every conversation that counts. I'm Tim Newman, a recovering college professor, turn communication coach, and I'm thrilled to guide you on a journey to becoming a powerful communicator. Today's guest is John Ball. John is a keynote and presentation coach who mostly works with professional speakers, coaches, and leadership teams, helping their communication go from competent to captivating. He's the host of the Present Influence Podcast, the professional speaking show, for act for experts who want to create impact, influence, and inspiration with their talks. John also co-hosts the Coaching Clinic podcast with his good friend Angie. John's a keynote speaker who talks on topics like personal mastery and bridging the leadership communication skills gap. He also publishes a small but punchy LinkedIn newsletter related to his podcast. He's a bit cheeky and likes to joke around. He's got stories and lots of them. He says he's not going to share any not say for work ones, but hopefully we can uh persuade him to share some good ones. John, well welcome to a show. This is going to be so much fun. You know, I've got to do that. That's quite an introduction. Thank you. Well, you know, it's it it it's it's what you do, and and I I love I love the fun part. Um I I like it when people you know don't take yourselves too seriously. And one of the things I did really like about in your bio, and I and I joke about a lot, is you say you have a face for audio content and a body for birthday cake. That's me. And I laugh because I tell people I've got a face for radio and a voice for silent movies. And yet you hate doing this. Yeah, and and that's that's that's the fun part. I I I think yeah, I I you know people take themselves a little bit too seriously and and and everything um ha has to be, you know, lock you know, buttoned up and locked in and very professional. And we're gonna talk about that a little bit, but I I I just can't do it. I you know, it's life's too short. Let's have some fun in in the things we're doing.

John Ball:

Yeah, yeah. There's enough enough troubles in the world without us needing to add to them or or take it all too seriously. We a bit of laughter now and again is much better. Oh, absolutely.

Tim Newman:

So, you know, you you're you're from the UK, but you're currently living in Spain. That's right. Um talk a little bit about how living and traveling around the world has has influenced the way you show up as a speaker and and a coach. Because you know, here in the United States, you know, a lot of us we we don't do that to the type of traveling that um people from other countries do. So kind of give give us a little bit of that background for us.

John Ball:

Well, I I feel like I've been very fortunate in my life to have uh I kind of lucked into becoming a flight attendant for 12 years. And uh it feels almost accidental more than anything else. Um, but I thoroughly enjoyed it. And uh so I got to see the world and work around the world in different environments as well. And more than anything, I learned, you know, as much as cultures can be different, sometimes even very different to what we are used to, there are always ways to connect with people. There's always ways to make people laugh. If you can share a language, sometimes even we can't, if you can just be understood in some way, there's always ways to communicate and connect with people and to to unite. So I do think that that's one of the things that definitely global travel has taught me over the years. And I don't I have this personal philosophy that wherever I am can be home if I choose for it to be home. Even if I'm in a hotel room somewhere, I can choose to have that. I feel at home here, I can be at home so I don't get homesick when I travel around. And so I can feel comfortable and confident wherever I am and connect with people around me, that there's always opportunities for that too. So um travel has opened open my mind in many ways, um, but it's also expanded my horizons for what's possible and for my comfort levels to be able to feel like I can fit in or at least feel comfortable just about anywhere in the world.

Tim Newman:

Yeah, and and how does how do you find humor that that really kind of is something that's relatable no matter where you are, that also helps you know build that that comfort level?

John Ball:

Yeah. Sometimes it is just about playfulness more than telling jokes. Right. And and so it isn't necessarily that I need to do a stand-up routine for you know, if I'm in Japan and no one's gonna understand it necessarily. Um, it's not necessarily that. But if I'm just a little lighthearted about things, a bit playful, I'm smiling, I'm warm, I show warmth uh to other people, that they feel that they they can do that as well. And I know there sometimes they said that some cultures don't necessarily feel like they are that warm. And yet my experience has always been that you will find the people who are when you show those things for yourself. People, the people are looking to connect, people are looking for those opportunities. So showing up with warmth and a desire to connect and to understand each other and to uh have new experiences, learn from new people is always opportunities that feel like they always feel like growth and development for me. I always have something to learn from others, and I hope they find something to learn from me too.

Tim Newman:

Yeah, and and I I I think that's so important, you know, to be able to learn from others, you have to be open to doing that too. You have to be open to um to to the way other other people see things, the way other people connect, the way uh the the way that they um uh learn, listen, and and communicate. That's and I think that's one of the biggest ways that that uh biggest ways to learn is is just by being open to it, you know. And so then it just becomes natural. I mean, there's I I think there's a way that you know we can be very intentional about it and there's times for that, but there's also times to just being open to to to letting things happen and learning that way as well.

John Ball:

Yeah. I think certain certain s um certain gestures and facial expressions are pretty universal and we can plant a and that those are the things that tend to give people the initial impression of what we're like as a person anyway. And so if we establish those things, the language issue is less problematic because we still tend to like people who we feel we like, even if we don't fully understand each other.

Tim Newman:

Right, right. And you know, you you said when you when we first started this that it's not about necessarily telling jokes all the time, but you do do some open mic comedy, and which I think is which I think is awesome. I I don't know that I could ever do that because I I don't think I'm funny, but uh but w why do you believe every speaker should should try to stand up at least once?

John Ball:

Um I think because it is so scary. It was something that scared me so much, and I wasn't sure I could do it. There's all that's always that thing of is what comes out of my head that might be funny to me, are other people gonna find that funny as well? And we don't know, and sometimes we're a bit afraid of finding out. We don't really we don't really want to put ourselves in that situation. Um but there are there are somewhat safe ways to do it, and and I often will tell the story of like I'll tell you about my very first ever time doing open mic. Um, I'd been putting it off for forever, but just didn't want to do it, but I finally got inspired by a guest on my show um to go to go for it, to do it. And she's been doing comedy for years and she still does open mic nights just to just for fun, just to connect with people and to try different things out. Right. Well, if you can still want to do that all this time, I should at least give it a go because I don't know what I'm missing. And so when I went there, I just gave myself permission to bomb. It's okay if I bomb, that's fine. I can do it. Success here is just me getting up on that stage, right? Being scared to get up on that stage. If it all goes horribly wrong, fine, it goes horribly wrong, but I will have still done it. I've put myself forward, I've put myself at least into the situation where things could happen. Now, a few people who are on before me did bomb, which uh, so I was pretty lucky that the bar was set low, thankfully. So but they it just made me feel more comfortable. It's like, okay, it's okay to bomb. Nothing happened to them, they they survived it, they come off the stage, they're still smiling. One of them was even a professional comedian who just unfortunately bombed that particular night. And um, and so I get up on stage, I did my act. I think I have to say, I think I got the most laughs of the night, which is great. Uh, but it was it was amazing. Even if that hadn't happened, I was just so so desperate to get back up and do it again. But the challenge of all of that, it was so confronting, and also having to take parts of your life and put them into a context that finds the funny and that finds the humor in life is a great reframe. Is a um, whilst we shouldn't use comedy, stand-up comedy for our own therapy as such, it does have it does have some effects like that because you are pushed into reframing things in your life that where there may have been some pain or trauma, even as a communicator, I think it's essential that you be able to at least add some lightness, some humor into your communication. Right. And unless you really never find anything funny or never laugh at things, you can probably find a way to be funny. You just need to know the right tools or setups to do that and create some material. And not everything's gonna get a great laugh, but some stuff will. If you can at least get some laughs or chuckles now and again and a talk or a presentation that take away, like especially if it's a serious present, if you're presenting um end of end of year results and stuff and they're not being great, it's gonna be a bit of a serious meeting. But if you can add a bit of lightness to that, that's gonna cut through the tension, it's gonna put people at ease, and it's gonna make you seem like a much more engaging and charismatic leader as well.

Tim Newman:

Yeah, it's I I I love that you said that too, you know, for for any number of different reasons. First you know, first the whole idea of of do it scared, do do it, do it, um, I wouldn't say do it petrified, but but yeah, do it do it, do it do it as petrified as you as you are, right? You know, yeah. You know, I you know I you know, you if you think about all the times that we do other things scared, you know, whatever it is, you know, I'm I'm married now, so I would never do this now, but when when I was dating, going up and talking to a to a woman, uh, or asking for a date, or you know, whatever. We do all those other things scared or or with with trepidation. Um this is something that like you said, nothing what's the word what's what's the worst that's gonna happen compared to what's the best thing that's gonna happen. You know, you do an open mic night, okay. The worst thing that's gonna happen is you're gonna buy them. The best thing that's gonna happen is people are gonna be laughing their heads off for for for maybe for days because they're gonna go back and think about, oh, remember what John said? Remember that joke John told what what whatever it is. So, you know so do do things when when we're when we're scared or when we're we have some anxiety over it, and stop thinking about what's the worst thing that's gonna happen and start thinking about what's the what what the what that best thing is.

John Ball:

Yeah, if if everything in life, if we always knew everything in life would go well, there'd never be any real challenge in life, would there? There'd be nothing, no fear, nothing to overcome, no growth because of that as well. So we do grow from these sorts of challenges that we can present ourselves. And so, you know, right, so what's the worst that could happen? Because um probably the worst that could really happen is that things don't go the way you want them to, and you get in your head about it and start making yourself up about it. That's that's something that people just tend to do. But if you can lower the stakes for yourself and say, hey, look, it's no big deal. My I lowered the stakes for myself, it's no big deal. If I bomb I bomb, but I've done it, I've done the thing that I've been so afraid of for such a long time. That really is a thing. Going up and talking to that um beautiful person who you think is very attractive. Um that might be scary because there's always that fear of rejection not being accepted, and rejection stings. But again, what's the worst that could happen? You're no worse off if nothing happens than you were before. It's just it's just the conversation that's going on in our head is can either be in it, can either be empowering or disempowering. It tends to be for most people disempowering oh you suck, you're not a good bell, you're not attractive enough, or they didn't mind, or whatever is going on for you. You weren't funny enough, you didn't nobody laughed. We beat ourselves up. Exactly.

Tim Newman:

And you know, as as I as I think about it, um when I asked my wife to marry me, she she told me she had to think about it. You know, so you think you you so you think about rejection. And when I asked her dad, he said he told me no. So I mean it's you you you gotta you gotta laugh. I mean, I I've I've got all kinds of stories about being rejected, so you you just become numb to it and and you But it wasn't the end of the story, right? It no, it's not the end of the story, right? It's just like just like anything else. And you know, what one of the other things that I I really like that you mentioned was the whole idea of charisma. And is is charisma something, you know. I I I talk to people, some people say charisma can be coached, it can be built. Others say that it's you either have it or you don't. I'm I'm in the in the in the camp of you can develop charisma. Charisma.

John Ball:

What what do you think? What are you thinking? What are your thoughts on that? 100%. I think you can develop charisma. Some people do have it very natural, seem to have it very naturally, and that's great when they do. I think some of the main elements of charisma, especially as a speaker or presenter, uh, are really just uh it comes from various research. One part of it being from Vanessa Van Edwards, who has some amazing research and books on this topic, but just being on stage and portraying the qualities of warmth and competence. So if you come across as someone who has warmth about you, and someone who is like it's relatable. So we like people who are warm, not people who are frosty cold, and we like people who seem to know what they're talking about and have some level of competence with that. If you can show that you have those things, you've all you're already a big part of the way there. But I think people tend to think of charisma in terms of uh you have to be always be the life and soul of the party. You always end up being, I think it gets very tied to an extroversion. Yes, uh, and they're not the same thing. And I do think charisma can be learned and can be applied in particular situations, maybe not every part of your life, but ultimately there are, you know, it was interesting to me that, and I'll just say this so many people who do get into talking about charisma get into it because um their initial interest in it is dating and and getting laid, right? That that's that's why a lot of people who talk about this or even teach it get into it in the first place. And that wasn't the case for me. Um, it wasn't something that I thought I need to get more charisma so I can, you know, get and be more successful dating or anything like that. That wasn't really the case. It was more a case of being interested in what makes people influential, what makes people persuasive, that I've been fascinated in for years and years, and um and and starting to pull that apart and understand. I want to get into the what are the principles uh that make somebody um more appealing, more persuasive, more attractive, more charismatic. And it is a lot of it is from knowing who you are and owning it, being okay with your own flaws, your own faults, being aware of what they are, being unashamed of them, unapologetic for living your life, owning your mistakes, admitting to them and showing that you've learned from them, um, but also being interested in other people, not putting your ego above them. There's so many different elements of this. There's more as well, but these are some things that are at the heart of charisma. You know, there's people who really show an interest in you who ask you questions, they just feel really warm and you just want to keep answering their questions. That's charisma. That's uh something you you remember them, you feel like, oh wow, they were nice, they were really interested, and you probably get a warm feeling from them. Yeah.

Tim Newman:

Yeah, and and and I I I love that you you said that that you number one is that you're showing interest in other people, because that's that's that right there to me is is something that really uh builds uh builds a connection as well. Even if you're you're talking about something um that you may not necessarily agree with, but if you if you've got if if you're showing that that person that that you're interested in what they're saying, um that that maybe they may be the most important person in the room, that's something that's gonna really build that that connection as as well. Yeah.

John Ball:

Yeah, that that's that quote that's often attributed to Maya Angelou. She may have said it, but she didn't originate it. That people uh won't always remember what you say, but they'll always remember how you made them feel. Right. And um, and I think that's very, very true. It's like it is about generating emotion in people, feeling, connection. Uh, and that could only come from genuine interest. I think some some elements of charisma can be faked. I'm not gonna pretend that they can't, and you should watch out for that because it's like there is just evidence that um sociopaths, psychopaths uh understand these principles and are able to um act within them and come across as people who have charisma. But if they have charisma, but they're also showing sort of dark traits, they're also showing maybe they're a bit bullying, maybe they're super dominant, maybe they always need a bit of praise and uh support, maybe they are always putting other people down to feel better, they don't like any kind of criticism. These are all, those are the red flags that will say, yeah, all right, this is this is potentially somebody who might be a bit uh bit sociopathic, they might be at least a bit very narcissistic. Yes. These are dark, uh what they call dark triad traits um that you really want to uh just flag for yourself because they could indicate that that person is not a good person, but they're probably not that genuine. They are pretending the charisma is an act.

Tim Newman:

Exactly. And and and the the those types of things will eventually show their heads, right? I mean I mean, if if um may maybe not to you that uh initially, but maybe this that person could have done it to somebody else, and then they see that they're treating you that way, and then they say, uh, now I now I really see what this person is about and what this person is doing. Um and uh and I think that's one of the things that really kind of separates is charming charisma, right? Yeah, yeah. I think charisma is is is more is is obviously more genuine. Charm is an act.

John Ball:

Yeah, it can be. My my I remember my grandmother saying to me when I was a child, beware, beware of charming men, she said. Uh she was she was quite right as well. It's something to at least pay attention to because it could indicate that there's some toxicity beneath that, but it doesn't always so it is just something to something to be aware of if someone's buttering you up, uh complimenting you all the time on those kinds of things, love bombing you, it's called um this and a lot of this stuff ties into I'm I'm very interested in cults. I don't know if you've ever looked into um cults and how they operate, not just religious cults, any kind of cult, personality cults, all of that. Um they operate on the same kind of principles. These are just like you can have cults of one person, small group cults, uh cults of personality, cults of religion, uh, but they operate on the same principles and and they're all kind of controlling, bullying, um power, power positioning. And um, when you understand those sorts of principles, um, very powerful. I think it's good for anyone to know that because I think knowledge does give you a it's like uh like getting your shots is a bit of a bit of immunity, not a guarantee, but it's some immunity from these things that you're more likely to recognize when you're confronted with them.

Tim Newman:

And how does that r really relate to the whole idea of knowing yourself? Because you you mentioned that, and I'm I'm a big believer in we we here, at least here in the States, we we don't really teach people how to critically think about themselves and and really get to know who they are and what what they're all about. How does that how does that relate to that?

John Ball:

I I've I've definitely been in periods of my own life where I haven't really felt like I knew who I was or what I was about. I think most people can probably relate to that at some point. And and I no longer think that it's uh a journey so much to to uncover that as more of a decision of that you you you kind of decide who you want to be showing up as in life, what's important to you, what really matters, and uh how you want to live and experience your own life. Do you want a life that has good positive challenge in it? Uh, or do you want a life that then just kind of rolls along massive comfort level, no real challenges, just try and get through it, get to the end of it as as comfortably as possible. Uh, you know, I I choose to have a life that has good positive challenge in it. Yes. And uh so I create a lot of those challenges for myself because I don't I I've tried the coasting, I've tried the smooth sailing stuff, and it's boring. Boring. And you don't feel like you're really getting anywhere, and you don't feel like you really know yourself. So I think until you do start challenging yourself and interacting with other people, you don't really know how you're how you want to be, who you want to be showing up as in this world. It is making those decisions. Who do I want to be showing up as in this life? How do I want to experience my life? Because I can either be affecting people positively or I can be infecting them with negativity and other things as well. So, you know, the there's really the the choices that we make define define who we are rather than some X marks the spot treasure hunt to try and find the real you. It really is the choices and decisions that you want to make of how you want to show up in your life and how you want to, how you want others to experience you as well, as much as how you want to experience things for yourself. Yeah.

Tim Newman:

And you know, I I think back you know, I've I've had a couple uh you know periods of my life, or more than a couple, let's just say a few periods of my life where I've I've kind of fallen into that comfort, you know, and uh not growing and not not doing the things that I knew I wanted to do or were or getting to the places I knew I wanted to get. And one of the things that I found with me is you said it, negativity starts to to to creep in, and I and I'm not the positive, you know, person for other people that I've that I I want to be, and you can I can see the negativity and how I'm treating other people and it it sometimes it it has taken me a little bit to to get out of that to to move forward. But understanding where we are and being able to to move forward, I think is is really important as well.

John Ball:

There's uh there's a simple principle in personal development of cause and effect. Uh you may have come across it before, but uh this is about living what how we live. Do we live at cause or do we live in in effect? Right. And so living at cause is choosing the path of your life, choosing how you want to show up, how you want to be experiencing your life. Living in effect is having that all decided for you. I mean, you get caught up in traffic in the morning, you're in a bad mood for the rest of the day, someone else has affected your mood, your and how you experience your life for that day. World events piling onto you. You get we can easily get buried under all of that and the negativity. And yet we could choose something else. We don't have to be buried under that. Right. We can make another choice for ourselves or like, well, yeah, there's plenty of uh unhappiness, plenty of sadness, tragic things going on in the world. But does us being miserable help that? Does us be miserable or are we kind of just adding to the problem? Whereas perhaps we could be being a bit more being of service in some way. We use that service is just putting a smile on someone's face or helping someone out or doing a random act of kindness or whatever it could be. But as soon as we start to move into the service mindset for others, that it's not all about us and our fulfillment and our gratification, then I think we have much more possibility to live a more fulfilled life than if if we're all only concerned about what we're getting out of the deal. Right.

Tim Newman:

And you know, d doing what we do, you know, we we talk about it's it's not about us all the time, right? And especially from a speaking perspective, it's not about us. You're I think you're the first person that's mentioned that it's not about us ever. Yeah, right. And that's but that that's that's that's right. I mean, what when we're when we're dealing with other people, it's just it's not about us. It's about us adding value and pointing to other people and and and and that sort of thing. And and I think that's important for the audience to to get and grasp and think on that for for a few minutes.

John Ball:

It's it's about us to only to the extent of um the decisions that we're making of how we want to show up and and how we want other people to feel when they're interacting with us. Like what are we aiming at, what are we actually trying to put out there into the world? If we're not conscious about that, then it's just whatever happens to be going on that day. Whereas if we're we're more conscious about that, there's a good chance that people are gonna feel much, much happier, much and that they're gonna want to interact with us more if we're showing up as a uh with high value, with good energy, uh, with positivity toward them, with warmth at least, or understanding, compassion, all those good things, empathy, all the things we hope and want and have people will have and show towards each other. Um it's hard to deal with life when we when we encounter people who aren't like that or situations that aren't like that. But it's like when you've made those decisions for yourself, it does then just become about everyone else. It's like you're you're doing this for for them, serving other people, right? Because that's where you will find greater fulfillment ultimately. If you're only trying to fill your own bucket, um you there's never there's there's never going to be enough. We see it over and over again. It's like uh there's only so much fame you can have, there's only so much money you can have. Um, and I see a lot of people who do have like high levels of success in one particular area often will start to focus on philanthropy and helping other people because that's where they really start to find meaning in themselves in their lives.

Tim Newman:

Exactly. And and that that that's a perfect, perfect, perfect point. And and I think you may appreciate this more than some. You know, when when we came on and we got on, yes, I was around I'm doing great, I'm doing awesome. Right. And I say that all the time, whether that's whether that's on I'm really doing great and doing awesome or sarcastically. And whoever I'm talking to never really knows. Because it number one, I don't know what's going on in that person's life. And it maybe if it's a smile, maybe if there's an uplifting things, make and I could be that person, that's great. And they don't need to know that I got cut off on the way into work. They don't need to know that I got an argument with with my kids or my wife. They don't they don't need it's it's not it's not that. Let's let's be that positive person. And now the people within my inner circle know whether I'm being sarcastic or not.

John Ball:

Right.

Tim Newman:

But but the general public that I mean let's let's be uplifting and positive and and and and bring that value to them. And you know, it's it's best day ever. And wow, good energy out there.

John Ball:

Yeah, yeah, that there's uh a guy, uh, one of the first guys I started learning from in personal development, it's kind of not he's not really that there's all sorts of problems there, so I'm not gonna name names or anything like that. But one thing he said uh would say a lot that stuck with me. Uh his answer would be feeling good for no good reason. I feel good, yeah. No good reason, just feel good. It's like great, we should be more like that in our lives. He's like happiness isn't doesn't have to be this conditional thing. Feeling good doesn't have to be conditional on whether the weather's good that day or whether the the news has been okay or whether your health is all right. It's a choice, it's a life decision that we have to try and keep making for ourselves. And that's also then what are we putting out there as well? It's like, well, we can feel good for no good reason. This isn't about, you know, there's some people I do know, some people will say, Oh, well, you should just be honest about it, you know, if you're not feeling great and someone says, How are you? You should tell them that no, I don't think I don't necessarily think that's the case. If there's some, if they're a confidant, if there's someone who you feel comfortable sharing that stuff with, and then that's the right kind of circumstance and situation. But otherwise, I think put out good energy, put out yeah, feel feeling good, feeling great. How are you today? Um, wherever we can, if we can spread a bit of joy and happiness, we make the world a bit of a better place.

Tim Newman:

Yeah, but and and take let's take that a step further, because even if you're not and you're sharing that with somebody who who you don't know or or is not in, like you said, in that confident or inner circle, if you start acting that way, you're gonna start feeling that way too. Right.

John Ball:

Uh natural, natural empathy, natural connection, mirror nuance, and all that kind of thing. Yeah, yeah. We st we start to we start to get into the states of the people around us, and and so it's very easy to be pulled into emotional states by other people. So uh this is again taking that responsibility. Where do you want to be leading them emotionally? Do you want to pull them into your negativity as well? Or do you do you want to be able to do that? Right, yeah, it probably does. But but it's uh it is it is those kinds of decisions of uh do you want to pull do you want to pull someone down or lift them up in this moment? And um, we don't always necessarily more we practice lifting them up in that moment, the more likely we'll do it off offhand. So I don't think there's anything negative or bad around you know, someone says, How are you? I think I'm wonderful, I feel great. Uh but I do think the sort of the flaccid in between responses are probably the worst ones to me. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm right. No. No energy to that. There's no how am I supposed to infer from this? Yeah.

Tim Newman:

Exactly. And and you know, I I I I love this this this part of the conversation. And it all revolves around that that whole this whole idea of charisma again, but how do we how do we kill our charisma? Because I mean we as if we're sitting in an audience, we we see it. We I mean we we see it almost immediately, right? But but what what are some charisma killers?

John Ball:

Overthinking is probably one of the worst ones getting in our heads about stuff because uh as soon as we stop being fully present with an audience or with anyone that we're with, then we are already creating a barrier between them. Um so if we you know if if we mess up or make a mistake, if we can't laugh about it or improvise our way around it, just dance, dance around it and carry on. If we let it take us out or say, oh, I can't, I can't continue. I've made a mistake now, uh, we're gonna kill our charisma as well. As soon as soon as the audience feels like anyone's on the way down in any way, shape, or form, you're done. Your charisma's dead. You know, you're not gonna be able to recover that as well. And you've seen people unravel emotionally on stage before now because they've had personal issues going on. And well, far better to maybe just cancel the gig or get someone else up there than to go put yourself through that in front of an audience of however many people as well who get to who get to watch the unraveling. Um, but you know, there's a lot of things, you know, just in how we relate to people, if your ego gets in the way, if you start thinking you're above people and you're talking at them rather than with them, there's a very different energy to that. So we want to be connecting, trying to talk, especially like the situation, a situation like this. You might be doing a podcast or a YouTube thing on your on your own. Um, so you're just talking to a camera, and you still need to have some charisma. So you need to imagine that you're connecting with whoever is on the other side of that camera. You might really want to then imagine one of your good friends or maybe even your best friend is on the other side of the camera or there, that you are talking, giving the talk or the presentation or whatever you're doing to them. Yeah, and maybe only to them, but it's for everyone as well. Yeah, so those are those are some of the things that can can really start to kill and damage your charisma if you let them.

Tim Newman:

Yeah, and and the that your last point, I I resemble that remark. I I I do I do obviously I do the the an interview podcast and then I do a a solo episode once a week too. And I I hope that I'm getting better at it, but you know, to just talking into the camera by myself, not not being able to see interaction, it's very, very difficult for me. Because I'm I'm I'm somebody who as a recovering college professor, I you know, teaching, I can see if I've lost some almost immediately and I can I can you know get back on track. But you know, doing a and they're only 10 to 15 minutes, but doing a 10 to 15 minute, you know, teaching lesson with no interaction, no facial expressions or nothing, for me is it's oh it's it's like death. Because you know, and um I'm I'm I think I'm getting better at it, but it's it's it's it's hard because I I don't truly know until after I you know put it out there and I start getting feedback, you know, from from the audience or uh, you know, again, my inner circle who sometimes I'll I'll send it to them and say, you know, tell tell tell me before I post this. You know, those types of things. But but it's it's hard for me.

John Ball:

It's something to develop over time. And I don't think we should be too too harsh on ourselves if we're working on that skill and developing it. I don't I don't know that I couldn't be, I'm sure I could be better at it than I am. You know, it's like there's always room for growth and development. Um, you know, even people who may have may feel like they have mastery in this area, if you ever feel like you get to a place where you have nothing to learn, I think you're only gonna damage your own potential to be better than you are right now. Because realistically, I think if you're not better six months from now or 12 months from now than you are now, you're not growing, you're not developing. And if you and if you're not growing, what are you doing? Are you stagnating at best?

Tim Newman:

Right. And especially doing what we do. I I think it's important that our audience sees us growing and doing doing the things to get better. 100%.

John Ball:

100%. No, there's something some people maybe not won't maybe wouldn't feel comfortable leaving up like early episodes of podcasts or old YouTube videos. I'll leave it all out there because I I I I want people to be able to look at step one of the journey and then look at step or 250 of the journey and and see some growth, see some change there. It's like, oh, isn't it? This isn't it doesn't seem like the same guy. Well, that should be the case. There should have been that level of growth and development. But none of us want to have to go through you know the dip and um have to deal with the uh the process of getting through the different levels of competence until it's more unconscious competence for us, and we can just do things naturally until it's like within us and we've embodied it. Um, but that takes a long time. And most of us don't want to go through the process. We just want the uh instant fix, the instant gratification, and yeah, that's uh plug into the matrix and download it all and now I can do it. I know kung fu, you know?

Tim Newman:

Yeah, and I mean and that's not really how how it works, but yeah, how how do you personally test and refine stories before bringing them on stage or or working with a client?

John Ball:

Oh boy, um stories are interesting. It does depend on the kind of story, um, personal stories particularly. Um I I do really look to uh make sure that I understand what the transformation point is in the story, what the does the story fulfill the purpose of what it's going to be there for? And do I have better stories different than maybe my own or maybe other people's? Do I have better stories that illustrate this before I put a story into a talk? Um, you know, if it's storytelling competition, that's a little bit different. But right, um, but for putting something into a talk is that there has to be a purpose for the story. So it's there to illustrate a point. It maybe is there to help uh show a journey of transformation. And if it's my own transformation, um then I'm gonna look to you know tell the story as concisely as possible, but still make it a journey, still make it a story. And so when I'm constructing that, yeah, the trans key transformation point, the the jump off point, like um, I may even stop a story sometimes before I get to the transformation point and come back to it later with the transformation continuously. Oh screen uh because it it's those, it's like the hooks that you start to put into a talk or you know, if you're gonna open your talk up with a story, you might not close it until the finish of your talk because you're keeping that mental tab open for people in their brains. The the story construction itself is really just to make sure it makes logical sense. You may have to condense timelines, that's really important to think. Take out it's like killing there's an expression kill your darlings. You probably have to take out all the stuff that you might want to put in there. Yes. So you might first of all tell it the way you might tell it to a friend or to a loved one, uh, but then you have to condense it from there. And so you might have to kill your darlings, take out some of the stuff you like, just to have the story be more punchy, more concise, more impactful. But there should be an emotional flow to the story as well. Because if they if there's no emotional buy-in from your audience, um, the story is going to have less impact for them as well. So you want them to be able to connect in with your story because what happens when we tell a story is that people start to visualize it generally. Not everyone's good with visualization, but most people will be putting themselves into it. You know, it's like the they put imagining themselves, all right, oh, maybe think of a situation I've had like that, or how I would react in that situation. They're starting to picture what that situation would look like in their mind's eye. And so that way there's like they're playing it almost like a film. They're starting to see the story for themselves. So it has to flow and it has to make sense, and it has to remove any extraneous detail. Um, it needs to be told in mostly in the present tense. You might flash back to past tense at some points, but as the story, tell the story as it's happening so that they it's um you know an experience that they have right now with you. But more than anything, I say it should have some emotional impact, and you need to decide what you want that to be. And you know, I generally take the attitude of I want people to, I don't necessarily always need them to be laughing when I tell a story. I'm probably gonna put humor into it because that's my style of doing things. But sometimes I'll put humor into it to make a bigger impact for something more dramatic or something a bit more emotional, and um, because it it will do that, the contrast will increase increase the impact. Um, but I don't want to be telling, I don't want my audience in tears. I don't want my audience crying all the time. Um telling that sad story because I have to go into the emotional state myself to help pull them into it, to lead them into it. And this is something I think to important to understand, not just in storytelling, but in presenting in general, your emotional state will be leading, directing the audience as to where to go, and they'll be you know, you'll be leading them into uh something good or something maybe not so good. You should be aware of what that is. Sometimes there's benefit or value in taking some audiences into something that is a little sadder, but if you're trying to elicit tears, if you're trying to uh have your audience crying, I I feel that that's really on the manipulation side of things. And uh, well, why why do you want them doing that? I I I do think you're far better off to be putting out positive stories, good good feeling in general, um, but fit that into the the purpose of your talk. Um so yeah, I do think we should steer clear of emotional manipulation, but we should encourage an emotional journey and interaction with the talk with the story.

Tim Newman:

Yeah. And and and again, I I I think you you really nailed it in in that you have to put yourself in that emotional state as you're telling the story to for it to come across the way you actually want it to come across as authentic, okay, because because we want them, we want them side by side with us as through through that through that journey of the story. And um, you know, I'm what I'm one of the things that I am personally working on right now is uh developing more stories. And I what I what I'm working on uh my coach has has me a lot of times I I get into the details, like you say, killing the darns. I I hate doing that because to me that's the the those are the th that's the gold for me, right? Not necessarily may not necessarily be the point that I'm trying to convey, but it's those other pieces that are that are gold for me. And so he's uh helping me get from a five or six minute story down to three minutes. You know, get get in, get to the point, whatever it is, and then move on to to the next piece because you don't want people to lose you don't want to get lost in that story. You know, people people will will shut out. And and I'm like you, I there's it doesn't matter what I'm talking about, there's going to be some humor in it. Even even and I I'm not a big like you, I'm not a big fan of the of the emotion, of the of the sad emotion. Um, because that's not why I I don't think that's why people want want to hear, because there's enough sadness everywhere. They when when you're on stage or you know, you're you're leading the meeting or whatever, there there's enough sadness and and and decrepitness uh everywhere else. Let's let's let's lift them up. Even even if it's a uh an emotional point, we can we can still have some some levity to it.

John Ball:

It's it's generally better to do that. You know, I find myself saying a lot in interviews at the moment, but you know Shakespeare understood very well that it was important to put comic relief in the middle of a tragedy, you know, it's like uh we have to break up that emotion. There's it, there's uh only so much you can take uh like the full the full tragedy all the way through with no no emotional break or change is too much for people to handle that they will lose interest. It it's very similar in a talk as well. Like I do know speakers who have a very sad story to tell that's part of what they get booked for for speaking, but they will lighten aspects and they don't go into the they don't go into misery themselves. You know, they might be talking about their own resilience and they'll be talking about things they've gone through that might be kind of horrific or or sad sometimes. But you generally will never come away from most of those speakers feeling feeling bad or feeling negative about it. You only feel, wow, they went through something amazing and they uh something horrific, but they came through it with uh with lessons, with with grace, with uh and they have carried on. They've made change uh they've um make maybe even made national change by becoming activists for you know improving something that affected them, or you know, it's like it there's all sorts of um potential for good things to come out of the bad, but they should. But if it's just bad and it's getting people feeling worse and worse, exactly. Yeah, I don't think we're going to a good place with our audiences, yeah. But definitely I I want my audiences to to leave with a smile. Um there's enough there's enough stuff going on in their lives that isn't good or happy without adding to it.

Tim Newman:

Exactly, exactly. So if someone listened, wanting to improve their communication, like as soon as they get done listening to us, what would be the one thing you'd challenge them to to start working on?

John Ball:

Uh to to improve their communication, stage time. Yeah. Get up there and do it. Uh there's the nothing you can beat. No amount of learning, no amount of communication, videos, you know, as much as they can be. I'm not saying they're not good. I put loads of them out myself, and there's lots of good people out there who do. They will help, but nothing will make as much of a difference for you as getting up on a stage or getting up in front of people and just doing it, um, doing what you need to do to improve your communication. So, you know, a Toastmasters club or some other speaking organization or um or doing an open mic night or whatever, whatever it is for you. Um, but just getting up and doing it will be your biggest path to growth. And then you can apply the things that you learn in the videos rather than just filling your head with all this knowledge that you still haven't actually gone and put into practice.

Tim Newman:

Yeah, yeah, I and again, I love that you say that you nothing ever happened if people didn't don't do anything. So you you can you can you can think about it all you want, but until you start doing it, it's you you you haven't actually developed the skill.

John Ball:

Yeah, yeah. The C Fi poet Rumi says something along the lines of like the moon and stars turning your head. Well, you know, the life of the universe can be going on inside your mind, but it's m we must put stuff out into the world. We must take action if we want to see things change. It's like it's not enough to know it or to think about it. We have to do it, we have to move our feet and take action.

Tim Newman:

Exactly. Well, John, thank you so much for joining us. Where's the best place that people can connect with you?

John Ball:

All right. My website, presentinfluence.com, is is the best place to connect with me. You'll find uh there's a quiz there for your charisma. You can see how good your charisma score is. Um, you can check out of my my podcast episodes, you can see what programs I offer and um all the other good stuff about me is all on the website presentinfluence.com.

Tim Newman:

And I and I'll put those links in the show notes for everybody. But John, thank you so much for spending some time with us today. I really do appreciate it. And I I I love the the whole idea of of uh uh levity and and adding humor to everything that we do. So thank you.

John Ball:

It's been a pleasure. Thanks, Tim.

Tim Newman:

Be sure to visit speakingwithconfidence podcast.com to get your free ebooks, Top 21 Challenges for Public Speakers, and how to overcome them. You can also register for the Forum for Public Speaking. Always remember your voice has a power changer level. We're talking next to you.

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Tim Newman

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