Speaking With Confidence

The Framework for Powerful Communication with Chris Duprey

• Tim Newman • Season 1 • Episode 57

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What if the best leaders aren't the ones with the answers, but the ones who know how to ask the right questions?

In this episode, I sit down with former Army officer turned leadership coach Chris Duprey to explore the mindset shift that turns managers into powerful communicators. Through his Pathfinder’s Compass framework, Chris breaks down the difference between leading by instruction and leading by inquiry. Spoiler: It’s less “boss mode,” more “Ted Lasso with a mission.”

They get deep into the four pillars of breakthrough communication, Yes-And energy, vanguarding concerns, a question-first mentality, and the Law of Three, and explain how they help leaders develop other leaders. Whether you’re navigating team dynamics, family conversations, or your next big presentation, this episode reveals how curiosity, self-awareness, and intentional listening are the tools that change everything.

Chris shares how the military taught him the importance of active listening and how that lesson stuck with him far beyond the battlefield. His approach isn’t about surface-level leadership tips, it’s about building trust, growing initiative, and empowering others to find their own answers.

Connect with Chris:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/cduprey/

https://questionfirstgroup.com

Visit TimNewmanSpeaks.com to grab your free eBook, The Top 21 Challenges for Public Speakers and How to Overcome Them, and start building the confidence you deserve!

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Tim:

Welcome to Speaking with Confidence, a podcast dedicated to helping you unlock the power of effective public speaking. I'm Tim Newman, a recovering college professor turned communication coach, and I'm thrilled to guide you on the journey to becoming a powerful communicator. I want to thank each and every one of you for your support. It truly means the world to me. If you have questions or if you want something covered on the podcast, just send me a message. Please visit timdenwithspeakscom to get your free ebook the Top 21 Challenges for Public Speakers and how to Overcome them.

Tim:

Today's guest is Chris Dupre. Chris is a former Army officer turned business leader and coach dedicated to helping people uncover their untapped potential. His journey began in the 82nd Airborne, where he learned the power of listening, leadership and guiding others to find their own solutions. After the military, he led teams in business, earning his graduate degree and shaping his approach through mentorship, mindfulness and the power of great communication. Now a partner at the Question First group, chris helps leaders and sales teams have better conversations, build deeper connections and create real breakthroughs. His mission is simple to develop leaders who create other leaders Outside of work. He's a musician, a devoted father and someone who believes that with self-awareness and intentional communication, anyone can achieve extraordinary things. Chris, welcome to the show. It's always great to welcome a veteran and fellow 82nd Airborne member to the show. I really appreciate you coming on?

Chris:

Yeah, tim, I'm excited to have this conversation and, again, like when you talk to somebody that knows what all the way means, it's a. It's a totally different thing, right.

Tim:

It really is. It really is, yeah, yeah. I say that to some people sometimes and they just kind of look at me and I said, no, just get out of the way. Yeah, yeah, please.

Chris:

I remember signing emails ATW. Exclamation point. Exclamation point Anyway.

Tim:

So you know a couple of things before we really get into it. You know what? One of the things I really loved about your, your information that you sent me, is your devoted father, and anybody who puts that in their, in their bio or introduction, really touches my heart, because to me, there's nothing more important than family.

Chris:

Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, you know, my kids grew up sort of during covid yeah and by grew up, they're 15 and 11 today, right.

Chris:

And so, as they went to school from home, dad went to work from home, right and one of the craziest things that I saw is they listen right like I'm in my home office and the kitchen's right there like staircase over there, and when they get home from school they're hanging out listening to the conversations that are happening. They're like part of it and they get to see you know what it takes to do some of the stuff, and so it's just such a cool like I feel like, even though you work a ton in today's new world, like they're here with me and you know getting your kids are lucky to be in that position.

Tim:

My kids were lucky to be in a position that I was in. You know, they grew up in college campuses and interacting with people and and that, that, that, that that really kind of gives them a leg up or helps them stand out, because they feel so much comfortable, so much more comfortable, talking with and dealing with people outside of their age group, outside of their comfort zone, and they see how it works. So it's it's, you know, modeling that behavior is really going to benefit them in the long run yeah, yeah, 100, agree 100 so you play music.

Chris:

Oh yeah, I mean. So you want to talk about the two biggest fans of my band? Oh, okay. Now, my daughter's too cool now, but like she loves a couple of tunes, my son will sit there and sing every word of every song.

Tim:

Awesome.

Chris:

Yeah, so, so, and and my younger, so my son is the younger one. He can play a little bit of guitar, he can play a little bit of drums. So he, you know, I mean football is his, his thing right now, but he can also pick up a guitar and play seven nation army and you know.

Tim:

But but again, you know, think about this from from a developmental perspective. You know, the more things that you can do, the more things that you have experience in that. That helps up here, right, it helps how it helps in how we think. It helps in how we become critical thinkers, how we interact with with, with different things. That that come our way and by exercising different parts of our brain is what really makes us a more well-rounded individual.

Chris:

Oh yeah, and you know it's. It's an interesting thing. I, my kids, learn how to do their own laundry and cook, and and I know that some parents that like they don't do that, but for me it was. My kids can handle themselves, right, and so it's the same thing with, like, trying to teach them how to communicate, how to. To your point of like, how do you talk to people outside of your age range? Right, how do you do some of those things, those basic lessons, even if they're outside? Like my kid, he played Seven Nation Army was the tune that he loved, he had to. He took some guitar lessons for about six months and he did a little recital where he played that up in front of 25 families. Right, and what's that? It's a huge deal for for this, for this little dude, right? Yeah, and so setting up moments like that is just key it.

Tim:

It really is, and and it's it's also teaching them a couple, a couple things that I really want to talk about is, and you know, there there are some traits that that make people six or or there are, they don't make them successful. There are traits of people that are successful in the military and in in in private industry, in in in the civilian world initiative and awareness. You know, what have you found in your current position, with people revolving around initiative and awareness, and the difference between the people that are successful, somewhat successful, and not successful.

Chris:

Yeah. So I think the number one I mean I don't want to call it the number one killer of potential, but I think the biggest thing that holds people back is this lack of self-awareness. So when you go, look at leaders leaders that don't know how their energy impacts a room, other communication impacts a room, how simple things they said, like when they can't see it, it has really negative impacts on an organization, right. The same thing is true If you're not the leader, you're just you're on the team, right, right. The more aware we can become and I and I think what I mean by that is the more we understand how we show up and impact those around us by just being the more effective we become. Right.

Chris:

Then you get to initiative, and this was a huge part of being an officer in the 82nd Airborne Division, and I think it is a limiting factor that I see in a lot of folks and I don't want to blame the folks. It comes from dependency that gets built from leaders. Usually and this is the example, and this is this you see this all the time Young leader gets put in the role of leader like manager, super, whatever. That is because they were the best at the thing they did. So, tim, they were the person that took initiative. They were the person that just got after it, that just went all in, did everything, took it.

Chris:

Then we make them leader and we don't teach them anything. And so now we've added humans under them and more things to achieve, but they're so focused on just achieving it that when you, as the subordinate, come to them and ask a question, they just answer it right, and they always answer it and they always. You know, I don't like the word micromanage, but they basically micromanage right. So we create this bottleneck with these new leaders, so the people under them never practice initiative because they're just told to do certain things. Yes, and it creates this cycle of non-existent leadership.

Tim:

Yeah, because when that person that was elevated to leader was never trained how to be a leader, eventually they're going to move up because that's what happens and they're not trained there.

Chris:

They're not training this person and then it just becomes roll over, roll over, roll over, and so what ends up happening is the folks that work under. Those folks feel no autonomy, they feel micromanaged.

Tim:

Managed.

Chris:

They go to be compliant, do the things I need to do so I don't get fired versus committed, which is like I'm into the mission, I'm into what we're doing, I'm here, I'm giving you everything I got every day, exactly Again, which leads into the disciplined initiative. And so when you look at folks that have been super successful, they're self-aware and they have this discipline, this drive, right, right, and they have this discipline, this drive, right, right. But what we don't ever talk about is they usually have had a great leader, leader that is, a mentor that has helped them break out of that horrible cycle. Yes, yes.

Tim:

And that person then becomes a great mentor, correct, and that's that's how that and that's how how it kind of rolls down. You know, um, I had a last week. I had, um, four of my former students come to town. They do a buddy trip every year and and, and I was really touched, this year they they chose to do it where I live so they could come see me. I mean, I keep in touch with me where they're. They become, you know, close friends and like family.

Tim:

And one of them is a is a college professor at 40 years old. Um, he's a department chair, full professor, and he was telling me about some things and I had to take him back to some of the things we talked about. When he first started I said you know, first off, you've lost sight of what your actual job and what your actual role is because you haven't been trained in these things and you have to understand, you have to touch back with that. Your job is to develop people to be successful in life. It's not to teach them sport marketing. It's not to teach them this, that or the other thing. Your job is to teach them sport marketing. It's not to teach them this out of the other thing.

Tim:

Your job is to teach them how to be successful in life. Your job as a department chair is to help your, your, your faculty members, help your students be successful in life right and get back to doing those things. And everything may not always work out the way you want them to do, but ultimately you're meeting. You're meeting your mission, you're meeting the things that you're tasked to do. The most important thing is take care of those students. Yeah, yeah, and we forget that sometimes, on all levels, in all industries. It happens in the military, it happens in private business, it happens in education, it happens in families, it happens all the time.

Chris:

We get so with stuff, with life yeah, because there's all these pressures, right, right. So in the business world, right, you have, like you have revenue targets, you have sales quotas, you have you marketing kpa, like whatever it is. That's a weight that you are carrying around. Yeah, and we can't, as leaders that were aspiring leaders, let that keep us from that mission of we have to create other leaders and get them to develop and grow right, right, because eventually we're not gonna be here and somebody's gotta take, take charge, somebody's got to do it, that's right.

Tim:

And just just something that kind of popped in my head. You, you talked about being involved in being committed, and I always think about it from from the breakfast perspective. You know, the chicken is involved, the pig is committed, hmm, yeah. So, yeah, remember that.

Chris:

Yeah, oh, I like that.

Tim:

So you know we also talked about, you know, how we can help. One of the issues with young people is they don't have a framework in how to talk to people Because, again, we're never taught how to talk to people. It's just go, Go figure it out, go figure it out, and that's what we had to talk to people. It's just, yeah, go, go figure it out, go figure it out, and that's what we had to do and and that's great. But we're in a different time in life. We're a different time in society. That you know. Again, go back to the, the helplessness. Because we've got this screen covering our face all the time, there's no need to talk to anybody, because I've got this screen covering our face all the time. There's no need to talk to anybody because I've got it all right here.

Chris:

Yeah, and so I think that this is this is where it all comes down to is because everything's so much faster today, because everything is just immediate. We think that we can keep that just text based communication going, and the reality is, when you get to a certain level, you can't, because I've never, I've never seen conflict get resolved or a breakthrough happen in an email exchange or in a Slack exchange.

Tim:

Exactly, it doesn't happen. All those do is it creates more conflict, it creates more confusion. And here's Chris. Let me just say this there's nothing. A lot of things aggravate me, but there's really nothing that aggravates me more than when people complain that things aren't being solved through an email. Pick up the daggum phone, call them. You can resolve this in five minutes, yeah. Get up walk down the office.

Chris:

Yeah, when I was, when I was the COO at impact, used to hear this all the time and be like I'd see it in Slack and just go. Why didn't you just call them or get on FaceTime or something like, like some sort of where we can see and hear each other if we're not in the same building? But it's become so air quotes easy, right To just send a message, and I think it it it stems to what you were saying, tim, is that we don't have a framework to go back to. Him. Is that we don't have a framework to go back to, we don't get taught how to, quite frankly, get past some of the junk that ends up in our own brains that gets in the way of effective communication.

Chris:

Exactly one of the one of the biggest things and I think it was reading James Clear's book Atomic Habits that he talked about this about how the brain uses the most calories of any other organ in the body. Right, and so it it then to try to resort, like to save energy. It buckets things together and this is where assumptions come from. Right, so right, we hear the same thing over and over, so we automatically make the jumps in here to that thing, yeah, and assuming is good in planning. Okay, like you remember from back in, our days in the 82nd right.

Chris:

You have to assume when you're making a plan, but the first thing after the plan's done is you send out reconnaissance to go confirm or deny those assumptions Exactly Right. Right, but we don't teach people how to do that reconnaissance in communication. And it's so simple. Yes, it's just asking questions it's, it really is.

Tim:

And you know, for those, for our listeners. You know, chris and I did a a pre-show call and I record. I record all those calls, you know, for for my research, to go back and plan for this. And it hit me when we had the call. But it hit me again when I went back to watch. You asked you know we were talking about, you know where people were getting hung up, and then you thought for a second and then you asked another question and then you asked another question. You said now you get it. And that's how simple is that? How simple is that? Just ask the questions. You know, if you don't understand something, ask the questions. If you want clarification, ask the questions and let's pinpoint what the issue is and then we can deal with that issue and then we can move on to the next issue.

Chris:

Yeah, and, and so we we call it that the question first, we call that the law of three right. Where it's like, hey, your first answer is likely never the real answer, it's not the root cause thing. So if you ask somebody, so let's, let's. Let's stick with my daughter for a second. If I asked my daughter when she gets home from school today, I was your day, she's 15, she's a sophomore in high school tim. She's gonna say the f word. It was fine. Do I know anything in that moment?

Chris:

nothing no, I don't know anything right. But then so too many of us accept that non-communication and we just move on. Yes, but I go well, hey, what? What happened today? It was like different from any other day. And she'll say something like well, how did that impact this? And now we're in what?

Chris:

now you have so many parents don't get into, which is a conversation with the kid conversation yeah, yep, you know, I love going even a step further, going, hey, brooklyn, on a scale of zero to 10, 10 was the best day ever. Zero is the worst day ever. Where was your day? Because there's a thousand things to unpack them. Yep, absolutely. But we can do this with anything a team conflict, a research, like. If you're curious, tim, like I think this is the. So you've got self-awareness, you've got discipline, but we have to be curious, not curious in the way that we just ask siri or we like type it in, but where we're like well, I want to hear what Tim has to say. So, tim, what do you think about that?

Tim:

Right, it can be that simple, yes, and. And you know, just just in that example or scenario, what, what, what is happening to Tim? He's thinking wow, chris, chris wants my opinion. What. Nobody's really ever asked me my opinion before. Right.

Chris:

And, and what do people love to do tim?

Tim:

talk about.

Chris:

We love to talk about ourselves, right, we do when. When I meet young sales reps that don't ask questions, I'm like gang. You know, if you just ask them what their day-to-day looks like, they're gonna tell you yes like, yeah, if you. It's like, it's like field of dreams and now I've dated the two of us. It's a movie where, if you build them, they will come right and kevin costner builds a baseball field and what is it? The 19, I don't know.

Tim:

It's like it's a black socks the black socks black socks scandal, you know scandal, the early 19?

Chris:

It doesn't matter. The whole point is, if you build it, they will come. If you ask questions, people will answer them.

Tim:

Unless your wife Asked you what you want for dinner.

Chris:

Whatever you ready for, the here's the deal. That one's a hard one. Here's the deal, tim, and it's not like that one's a hard one, but here's the, here's the one that we always joke about. Where do you want to go for dinner? And your partner says I don't know. Here's the, here's the quick, quick win. Yeah, but if you had to choose one place, yeah, what would it be? And people could almost always choose that one place because when we say where do you want to go?

Chris:

It's broad, right, yeah. But if you haven't just give me one choice, they're going to answer you. It's the craziest thing. It works. I use it with uh. I use it with my partner all the time.

Tim:

That's awesome.

Chris:

I hope she doesn't listen to this and go. Oh, that's the thing.

Tim:

So that's what you've been doing all these years.

Chris:

Okay, now I got it. Yeah, there you go, yep.

Tim:

That's awesome. So, you know, let's talk about the, the, the, the graph from radical candor that we went over, because I think that that number one that's going to help simplify it, for our audience. That's going to help simplify it for our audience, and then we can start to really kind of look at wow, this is what happens.

Chris:

And this is where I don't want to be and this is where I really want to get to, yeah, so before I share it, let me let me give you a quick rundown here. So when the partners of the question of first group got together, we were going to film our first course and we're like, hey, we were all huge fans of Kim Scott's work radical candor, we. We love teaching it. It's the simplest framework because of this graphic that she has. And so we drew the baseline graphic, which was just a North South arrow and an East West arrow, right, and we said what is our version of this? And so that's what we're going to go through. We call it the path, excuse me, we call it the pathfinders compass. Okay, and you can use it to assess any, um, any leadership situation, any communication that you that you go through, any communication that you go through. So let's start at the base model of this. So you've got the North South arrow. This is who is the beneficiary of the conversation? Is it our audience or is it ourselves? Then we have the East West, and now this is the spectrum of curiosity, right, are we asking questions or are we telling? And so take a moment and draw that and the reason that I say that that's what we have to do, tim, is that that gives us this blank canvas to go. Okay, if I were to assess my conversations in the last month, here's where I generally fall. Well, they're really about me getting my needs met and I really just tell people what I need. So I'm in that bottom left quadrant, okay. So good, go think through that. Now let's look at what those actually are and as we go through them, I'll build out the whole thing. So we have here in the bottom, so where the folk, the intended beneficiary, is ourselves, and we're primarily telling this is the command and control style that we call the dictator.

Chris:

So think of early steve jobs at apple. This is just to do what I say because I've said it. Then we go over to the bottom right, engineered manipulation. So think of harvey specter from suits. Right, this is the lawyer, this is the prosecutor. Right, they're trying to just they're asking you questions to say the thing they want you to say, right, okay. Then we go to the instructor. This is prescriptive engagement. Think of this. Could be like the sales leader that got promoted because they were the best salesperson. It's like hey, just say it exactly this way and you're going to win. I'm rooting for you. So they tell you everything, but it's for your benefit. Then we have guided discovery. This is the pathfinder. This is where we want to be. My favorite way to put this is this is the Ted Lasso character. Yes, ted is a great, that is awesome.

Tim:

I'm glad that is awesome.

Chris:

Yes, so so that's the Ted Lasso is the Pathfinder, and it's this idea that we're focused on. The other, like our audience, we're focused on helping them, but we're asking them questions. Because, tim, when I ask you questions, what does it force you to do in a conversation.

Tim:

It forces you to think and engage yeah, to think and engage.

Chris:

And when we think and engage, that's when we actually develop this disciplined initiative, this awareness of what we're doing or not doing.

Chris:

This is how you create more leaders yes if you just tell them exactly what to do, you create clones that follow a system, and that's it right, exactly. Here's the tricky part nobody stays in one box all the time. Right, right, right. And so go back to this awareness pieces. When do I find myself telling more than asking? When do I find myself worrying about me and getting what I need done versus helping the person that comes to me?

Chris:

And the biggest thing that I see especially younger leaders helping the person that comes to me, and the biggest thing that I see, especially younger leaders will have people come to them. They'll answer every question. They will be the instructor or the dictator. They fall into one of those two, and when you ask them why they're like I just don't have the time to have the real conversation. Yes, but the thing that helps get the breakthrough is like well, how many times does person A come see you in a week? Oh, like four or five times a day. Okay, so is spending one 30-minute conversation to get them to see the thing better than having 30 or 25 interruptions throughout your week? Right, but sometimes we have to paint that for leaders Exactly. The key, though, is that we're focused on this, because if we're not focused on it, then the vicious cycle that I will call of non-leadership continues. I will call of non-leadership continues, and you have all of these sort of lemmings doing work and you have the stats that you see from Gallup and Gartner of unengaged employees at work.

Tim:

Yep, yeah, and I think you nailed it with the whole time thing. If we were to step back and look at it. Yes, it takes time to build this relationship. Yes, it takes time to teach them and guide them, to be able to get to this point. And, like you said, what you don't really think about is all the time that you're wasting way over here, just, you know, telling them what to do, tell them what to do again, do it this way, do it that way, go call steve, go, go do whatever, as opposed to taking the time to sit down with them, teach them, guide them and build. Build the relationship, because I know we're going to get into this, but that that it's that relationship that is, is, is the ultimate, is our ultimate goal.

Chris:

Right, and just think about this. It can be as simple, tim, as an employee comes up to you If you're a new leader, to say what do you think we should do with this, you just say, hey, listen, I've got some ideas. Before I tell you what I'm thinking, what's coming to mind for you, exactly, exactly. And so there's a. There's a. One of the things that a lot of people struggle with is they'll hear this message and they'll just say, well, what do you think? And now, with certain people, that's going to be fine, but certain people also want to know that you still got their backs. It's like, hey, I'm going to be fine, but certain people also want to know that you still got their backs. It's like, hey, I'm going to help you and we're going to spend some time here, right, and that gets the ball rolling.

Tim:

It really does. You know, and I did. I did something similar to that when I, when I was a professor, you know they would want me to give them examples of this, example of that. I said you know I can do that, but if I'm going to do that, you can't use any of those examples. So let's, let's talk it through together. You know what are you thinking, because what you're thinking is probably going to be a little bit different from what the student over here is thinking. So let's, let's, let's sit down together and start walking through it, and then you can see their faces go. Oh my gosh, now I really have to think about this, instead of just taking what somebody else is telling me to do, doing it and then, once they get it it's kind of like that email that you got a little bit ago, it's. It makes you bingo.

Tim:

You know you want to high five people and just kind of it's you got it now Now. Now do that all the time.

Chris:

Yeah, it's, you got it now. Now, now, do that all the time. Yeah, I, I gotta tell you this. I listen, I've been a coach now for about five years. I probably have 4500 hours of coaching under my belt, something like that and I'd never received an email like this one from a young leader who's who's likely around the you know, like the same age as a lot of the listeners, right, like a lot of folks.

Chris:

And the overarching message that she she said to me was how unequipped she felt in her leadership abilities. She was like thrust into this thing. She was shooting in dark, trying to understand how to develop people, and she had this caring about it. She wanted to do it. She had a strong desire to do her job, be the leader that she looked up to, but she had no idea how to do it. But she had the initiative, tim, and the awareness to go. This training is hard, but I am going to suck it up and get through this discomfort, and now she feels like she understands how to actually coach and teach people. The burden of leadership is less. The training is something that she likely will talk about for the rest of her life. Yes, now that is from. So you're ready for the craziest part. Yeah, I've never met this human in in like real life. We've only met virtually and we've only worked together for about five months how about that?

Chris:

that's awesome yeah I read it in the car at the post office as I was about to file the company's tax return, and I like started crying because it was like holy smokes. This is what you can do when you just have real conversations with people.

Tim:

Exactly, exactly. And, and you know I love the whole idea that, that she um admitted that it was hard, because, you know, that's that's where the learning occurs, the hard part, when it's the learning, it doesn't happen. When it's fun and nice and good, and the learning is the hard part, it's that, it's that, it's that struggle, that's where the learning occurs. And so you, you better embrace it, you better embrace that learning.

Chris:

Yeah, it's the. I had this old sales coach whom I love, a guy named Jack Carroll, and he used to talk about the different, like the cycle of learning, and he was like you start with unconscious incompetence, you don't know what you don't know no, right, so it was like you know, think about your kid learning how to ride a bike.

Chris:

They have no clue when they start. Then you get to conscious incompetence. So you know what you're supposed to do, but even with the training wheels it's like really tough then. Do you remember when you took the training wheels off your kid's bike?

Chris:

oh yeah and so this is when they get the conscious competence. So they had to think about everything they were doing, and I remember my son started going and he couldn't turn because he was so focused on stay balanced, keep pedaling, and I just watched him go right down the driveway and then right into the road. Granted, we live on a cul-de-sac, so it's fine, but he didn't know because he was so stuck in it. That's the hardest part, right?

Tim:

Right.

Chris:

Then you get to unconscious competence, where my kid just jumps on a bike, he's not thinking about anything and he's off and running. That's how we basically learn everything right Exactly it is, it is. And the hardest part is that, getting past the hump of knowing what right looks like and being like you're constantly thinking about what does right look like, so how do I do it until it gets ingrained and that's, and I I believe that that is where this young woman is now of. It was really hard to get, really hard to get, really hard to get, and then she got it.

Chris:

that's awesome good for her second nature right, yeah, but this can be true, like this is. The thing is that I I love her to death and I don't think that she's super special. She just did the work right to become the leader she wanted to be, so so anybody listening can learn how to lean into, how do we put our focus on others, and be super curious and like hopefully, you're lucky enough that your organization invests in leader development around this stuff.

Tim:

Right and and again, that's also a big key. You know when, you know we. We talk about a number of different things. Number one you, you as an individual, need to to know who you are, what your values are, and so when you go and you interview with a company, you need to know that already and you need to have an idea of what, the what, what does that company value? Um in in in terms of you know their employees and and and how they're going to help them.

Tim:

Because I, I, I truly believe it's our responsibility to to, to be leaders. You know, I I don't want somebody I mean to to not ever develop and just stay in one position all the time. I would much rather have somebody come in and develop and move up. Or you say you know what there's, as much as I love it here and as much as you're helping me, the next position for me is in another company. I would much rather have that person Because, you know, not not only do they do, they value what we did for them and what we would continue doing for them, but they're ambitious and they want to get better themselves period, and they may eventually even come back to us and I find that, working with a lot of small to medium-sized businesses, they really want to invest in their people.

Chris:

Yeah, and I think even in the bigger organizations that's still a piece. In the bigger organizations that's still a piece. The big mission that that I'm on is getting both large and small companies to understand that the problem we have is a lack of real leadership training. Yeah, like it is a workshop on how to do one thing of like that isn't enough. The like I mean. I remember I remember being in the 82nd, the amount of times that we jumped to just, and all the practice and rehearsals that went into every jump. Um, the amount of time you spent on the rifle range.

Chris:

Like you insert anything, a flippant parade, right yes, a change of command ceremony yes oh, there's a whole week's worth of practice, right, but that's what it takes to get to these points, right? So if we think a annual retreat where we have a speaker come in and talk to us about the book they wrote, that's not enough.

Tim:

No that's right, that's not that's, that's that's some time off, that people aren't paying attention to that. They're aggravated that they're not getting things done that they want to get done and it it's. It may touch a few people, but but you they completely missed the boat.

Chris:

Yeah, and so when you get into real leadership development and coaching and training, you get leaders together, you get young and seasoned and all this stuff and you have real conversations. I was with Tim. I was with a company yesterday. It was a leadership team and we talked about what are all the issues and I'm just looking at I happen happening to be looking at the piece of paper. It's like it's over 15 things that they all had about how they communicate, about all these different things, and it was like y'all have this gift. Like the two owners were in the room and their wife participated and it's like we're actually going to go get to solve that stuff.

Chris:

Yeah, and most of it's because y'all don't know how to communicate with each and that's, that's the thing. So when I think about you know, my daughter is going to be in college in a couple of years. A couple of years after that she'll go into the workforce she's a hundred percent going to have to learn how to communicate correctly and by correctly I just mean just be curious, curious, stop assuming, lean into asking questions and let's get that to be the norm and have this like where we show up with, like this question first, mentality of. Hey, before I get defensive, before I make a judgment, let me unpack what they mean. Like too often, you know, have you ever, um, you think of a sales professional? If you tell a sales guy, well, I just think that it's a, it's a bit expensive. What's the first thing that they usually do in that moment, tim?

Tim:

Well, they ask the following question what is that? What's too expensive? What is it that you want them to do?

Chris:

So listen so that's if they get trained right.

Tim:

Like well, hey, what does too expensive mean?

Chris:

Yeah, yeah, but here's what you're a communications coach so of course you answered that way.

Chris:

But let's talk about most salespeople, brother. They're going to go to a discount or they're going to lean into their pitch. Well, you know, it's really about the value and blah, blah, blah. And we, as the consumer, like I'm good, right, right. But the simplest thing is just hey, what do you mean by too expensive? Because too expensive for person A might be completely different than for person B, exactly Right. And all we have to do is ask the questions and that's how we get there.

Tim:

Right, right, I'm sorry, I that's just. Yeah, that's what you know. I mean, but that's but. But you're absolutely right and, and, and, and. Here's the thing when you start doing that, that doesn't just carry over into your professional life, right? Oh, that carries over into everything, yeah.

Chris:

So the funniest thing is the second that I learned this stuff and worked with Marcus, my partner, or one of my partners, to like work on what is breakthrough conversations. What is this thing that we want to do? Made me a better dad, made me a better partner, made me a better human. Just because, instead of sitting there with this judgment, you I got curious. What well? What the heck? Well, what does that mean? Right now, you know there's lots of things. When you start getting curious, you like are open to more things. Right, and I fundamentally believe that that is just a better thing than being closed off absolutely it's, it's 100, it's 100 better, better thing to be yeah, it's, it's like the idea of if you have no food allergies, right, but this is I learned, this happened over the last like two years.

Chris:

I'd never done one of those fixed menus where a chef just creates and like, but I but I went on this experience and I've never eaten ceviche scallops okay, and I live in new england and they, they brought those out and it's like, well, I could judge it, because it to me it was air quotes, uncooked and cold, it's like.

Chris:

Or you could try it just try it, and so you just try it just try it now. Now here, I am talking about that because it was like such a. It was just trying something new, yep, and curious about it. Yep, open it up to something that I actually do, sort of like now, how about that?

Tim:

Yeah Right, the food referencing is a good one. You know my wife loves sushi. I can't stand it, oh yeah.

Tim:

But, but every year on her birthday, she says she wants to go and get sushi. So so we go. So what do we do? We go and get sushi and she says are you going to eat it? Yeah, I'll try it, because maybe I'll try something different than I like, or maybe I'll try the same thing and I'll like it this time. It's yeah, it's about curiosity and and it makes her happy. Yeah, heck, yeah, I eat so much food anyway. If I have a bad meal or if I don't like something, I will be okay, trust me.

Chris:

I share that with you, my friend, I share that with you.

Tim:

So what are the four pillars of your framework? You mentioned the rule three, which to me is yeah, I'm going to say it's the most important, because that's the only one we've talked about so far.

Chris:

Yeah, it's very important. So listen, there's four, here's the deal. There's nothing new or novel with them. They are four things that are out in the world, right, but when they're brought together and we teach them the right way, they become this great thing we call breaks of conversations. So the first one, which is potentially my favorite, is yes, anne and Tim. This is literally stolen from improv comedy. Right, we take whatever is given to us and we move forward with it. And I'm a huge Star Wars nerd, so I'm like for me, yes, and is like the force that surrounds communication. Okay, so that's yes, and we're always positive energy. Our body language, everything needs to be moving us forward positive energy. Second one is vanguarding. This is the idea of when's the best time to address a concern Before it becomes a concern right.

Chris:

Right, Like if we address a concern before it becomes a concern. We are not objection handling anymore. We are having the right conversation. Having the right conversation right, and sometimes it's as simple as like hey, you might be thinking, and then you, you go into it, right. So vanguard is getting ahead of concern before they become concerns. You know, it's like what are all the but statements somebody could make and how do you address them so they can't say yeah, but what about this? And and?

Tim:

that a lot of that goes revolves around the preparation, research and knowing who, knowing your audience, knowing who you're talking to, all of that stuff. It's, it's it's so important to to have an understanding of those things as opposed to oh, you know what I'm talking to Chris today. I have no idea what he's going to say. Let's, let's, let's wing it.

Chris:

Yeah, well, and it's also reading your audience, right, yeah, so, hey, you're about to say something like that. They might sound weird. Hey, I'm gonna say something might sound weird. To prep it right, and now it's less awkward. Okay, right, that's vanguarding, now that, like that, we chose that as the title of this, going back to, like the, the Roman Legion, when they'd have the vanguard, would be out in front, this idea that we're out in front of these things. The third is question first. This is it's not a leader's job to tell people what to do. It's their job to help them discover it for themselves.

Tim:

Yes.

Chris:

When I talk to sales folks I say it's not a salesperson's job to sell the thing, it's to guide the buyer to make the right buying decision.

Tim:

Ooh, I like that.

Chris:

These are just think about the power of that one for sales Right. The second you stop trying to just pitch and sell the thing, you become a guide. Yep, and we don't like salespeople, we love guides.

Tim:

Yes, I like that.

Chris:

I really do, and it's just lean into curiosity. And that last, that fourth one, law three.

Tim:

Yeah.

Chris:

They all tie together and that's how one becomes a pathfinder is they leverage those four pillars in all their different communication.

Tim:

And and and again it comes back to you know, in, in, in terms of that breakthrough communication piece you're. You're building that relationship. You're building that relationship and the more, the more you're doing, the more open they're going to be, the more information you're going to be able to share and where you're really going to get to the point, and then the more you're going to be able to build that trust.

Chris:

Yeah, because the idea around all of this is it's we're selling or we have people that we lead. How do you build trust with people? How do you build that connection they feel seen and heard. They believe that you actually do care about them have their back right, right.

Chris:

I mean, if you think of I know you go to, to the dictator, right the steve jobs early apple type thing, he was just a jerk and he wanted things done his way. Now I think he's a brilliant dude. I think that I mean I have probably six apple devices in a two they're all running.

Tim:

They're all running right now.

Chris:

Right, yeah, right yeah, like I'm on, like I'm looking at four of them right now and my ip I can't see, so there's like at least five right, but the idea is he struggled at first because he was just demanding without understanding people and letting them do things Right. And then, if you think of Ted Lasso, I was man, I, I love Ted Lasso, tim.

Tim:

Like.

Chris:

Ted is like my like I just I, I love Ted, Lasso, Tim, I do too. Ted is like my like I just I aspire to be more like him. But if you think of the end of season one, he gets Roy to self-discover that he should bench himself. Yes, In that last game. Yeah, Because Ted like I. I mean I think the show portrays it pretty solidly that, yeah, he would have let roy start if roy had said he was going to start. But he asked them some questions, they talked about it and you could tell that the character of roy felt the character of ted actually cared about him.

Tim:

Yes.

Chris:

And actually wanted him to do what was right for him Right, not what was right for Ted Ted. Not that was going to make everybody else happy, right, but it was about what was going to be right for Roy, and so it's like how do we, as leaders, as subordinates, as humans, go, hey, how do I help the person I'm talking to?

Tim:

just just get better, yeah, do their thing and and you know I tell people all the time, I don't care what, what business or industry you're in, what you do, I don't. If you're an accountant in a cubicle, if you're an artist, I don't really care. It all it's all comes down to the relationships that we build. And you can talk about AI, this and AI that, at the end of the day, it's going to still be about interpersonal communication. It's still going to be about the relationships that we build. Ai has has its role and has its role in communication, has its role in business, but at the end of the day, it's about people, it's about the relationships and connections that we build.

Chris:

A hundred percent, a hundred percent, and that's why this is important work, yeah, and it doesn't matter where you're at in your journey, right, right, you could be. You could be in a position a business owner, ceo, whatever, you could be high school student, these things apply. And the second that we realize like, hey, I'm not as good a communicator as I thought I was, and you start working on it, yeah, your life will change.

Tim:

Your life will change and it's and it's a skill like anything else. Like I said, one leadership class where some guy comes and talks about his book is not real leadership change. Taking a class in high school or taking a class in college, that's not. You got to practice it. Yeah, you have to go out and do it. You have to do it and you have to get better at it. Yeah, you have to go out and do it. You have to do it and you have to get better at it. You have to seek out the help and again, remember that frustration. That's the learning. Yeah, embrace it and get over it. Chris, thank you so much. Where can people find you to work with you?

Chris:

yeah, so on linkedin chris dupre, bald bearded gentleman. Um, right, or you can go to questionfirstgroupcom and you can find us there. What if they want to see your band play so you'd have to come to band practice in middletown, connecticut? Um, we, you know, this is the. This is the fun thing of having people at different stages in our life. My kids are old enough to be home alone. Two of my bandmates have really young kids oh, so we have not, we've not gotten out yet.

Chris:

We are going to record soon and when we record I will make sure that there are links on linkedin to to where the music is. That's awesome. That that's awesome.

Tim:

And you know what? One of my favorite movies. It's called the Drummer. I don't know if you've seen it.

Chris:

I haven't With.

Tim:

Rainn Wilson Dwight from the Office oh yeah, yeah yeah, I mean, it's classic, I'm writing it down.

Chris:

Yeah, yeah, yeah I will tell you last night not that anybody's going to care about this, but I saw Mumford Sons in a 2,700-person thing Did you? Really Wow. And here's the takeaway that actually is there. For some people, that's a lot of people, but when you think about a band that plays festivals, that's a very small intimate crowd.

Tim:

That's a small, intimate environment. Yeah.

Chris:

Now here's the thing that's a very small, it's a that's a small, intimate environment. Yeah, now here's the thing when you get like-minded people together, so at a festival, when there's 50 000 people maybe, maybe five percent know all the words to all the songs last night, 2700 people knew every word to every song and it was this coming together and it was, and you could, you could see, like just this, the piece about connection, like you could see them on stage looking at us in the crowd and being overwhelmed by the connection that was there. And so if you haven't experienced something like that, I strongly recommend.

Tim:

That's awesome, that's, that's a it's. It's powerful for for you, but it's really powerful for them to see the, the, the market they've made. Oh and yeah, you know the, the, the amount, the amount of time and effort that goes into being a musician and to the. There's a smaller percentage of people that make it as musicians and bands than people that become professional athletes.

Chris:

Yeah, it's all about luck.

Tim:

It's all about being in the right place at the right time, and to have that and to be in those types of environments, it's, it's, it's powerful yeah, and and so, and the funniest thing is, as I'm trying to be a curious dude, that's what I focused on.

Chris:

I was like look at, them like I want imagine what that's like, and it was this whole new moment, leaning into curiosity rather than what a lot of folks might do is lean into judgment, and so I'll leave you with that. It was super fun and, you know, someday, someday maybe I'll play the 3000 in front of 3000 people. I don't think so, but we'll see.

Tim:

Well, you've got, you know, two of the best fans there anyway, so that's all it really matters.

Chris:

That's right. That's right. They're honest to God. The fact that they like the music is a win in and of itself.

Tim:

Exactly Well, chris. Thanks so much, buddy. I really appreciate the conversation. It was great and we'll talk to you soon. Yes, sir, thanks so much. Be sure to visit speakingwithconfidencepodcastcom to get your free ebook Top 21 Challenges for Public Speakers and how to Overcome them. You can also register for the Formula for Public Speaking course. Always remember your voice is the power to change the world. We'll talk to you next time, take care.

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