Speaking With Confidence

The DNA of Engagement: Building Emotional Connections in a Digital World

• Tim Newman • Season 1 • Episode 16

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Welcome to "Speaking with Confidence," the podcast that helps you unlock the power of effective public speaking. In today’s episode, we are thrilled to sit down with the dynamic duo, David Pullan and Sarah Jane McKechnie, to discuss the DNA of Engagement and explore the powerful role of storytelling in both personal and professional contexts.

David and Sarah Jane bring a wealth of experience from the world of acting, having spent 30 years performing with the Royal Shakespeare Company and Paramount Pictures. Their transition into the business world led them to establish "StorySpotters," a venture dedicated to enhancing communication through effective storytelling. Their latest endeavor, "The DNA of Engagement," offers insightful techniques to improve engagement and leadership through storytelling.

Overview of the Discussion:

  • Tim, David, and Sarah Jane emphasize the importance of authenticity, vulnerability, and giving back.
  • They introduce the concept of "same paging" and discuss how it ensures cohesive understanding within teams.
  • They elaborate on the practical application of storytelling in business, the PREP structure, and the principle of "show, don’t tell."
  • The conversation touches on the rapid pace of modern life and how it impacts deep conversations and storytelling.
  • They emphasize ethical storytelling and discuss the scientific, artistic, and craft elements of storytelling.
  • The episode highlights the neuroscience behind storytelling and practical techniques like the "Dream, Nightmare, Action" (DNA) framework.
  • Sarah Jane shares insights on making stories more engaging through context, detail, and dialogue.
  • David and Sarah Jane also discuss their experiences of transitioning from acting to business coaching and helping clients communicate effectively.

Key Takeaways:

  1. Authenticity and Vulnerability:
    Authenticity and vulnerability are critical when it comes to teaching, storytelling, and making genuine connections. Being open and seeking feedback helps in connecting with the audience on a deeper level.
  2. Same Paging for Cohesion:
    The concept of "same paging" involves turning facts into cohesive stories, ensuring that everyone within a team has a unified understanding. This technique is pivotal for achieving alignment and effective communication.
  3. PREP Structure for Effective Stories:
    David Pullan introduces the PREP structure (Point, Reason, Example, Takeaway), which is essential for crafting compelling stories that leave a lasting impression. For example, illustrating an individual's problem-solving skills through a personal anecdote can make their abilities more relatable and memorable.
  4. Ethical Storytelling:
    Ethical storytelling is imperative. The responsible use of storytelling should aim at doing good rather than manipulating the audience. Stories should reflect values and behaviors in a genuine manner to build trust and integrity.
  5. Engagement Through Details and Context:
    Sarah Jane emphasizes the importance of bringing listeners into the world of the story. Specific details, context (time and place), and dialogue make stories more vivid and engaging, helping listeners to form mental images and connect emotionally.

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Speaker 1:

Welcome to Speaking with Confidence, a podcast that's here to help you unlock the power of effective public speaking. I'm your host, tim Newman, and I'm excited to take you on a journey to become a better public speaker. Let's welcome our next guest. David Pullen and Sarah Jane McKechnie met in a rehearsal room many years ago and decided that they'd met the person who was going to get them through the six-month tour that lay ahead. The last three decades have been an amazing journey. I don't think either of them expected the extraordinary journey.

Speaker 1:

They've acted with everyone, from the Royal Shakespeare Company to Paramount Pictures and in films with Shirley MacLaine. They've even performed for Henry Kissinger at a Secret Service entourage. They've created storytelling shows where they've cooked chicken for the audience and improvised a storytelling course. Now they apply the science, art and craft of story to the communication challenges that their clients face in industries such as professional and financial services, engineering, pharmaceutical, retail, hospitality, tech and the public sector. David and Jane founded the Story Spotters with one single aim to help save great ideas from extinction by giving people the story-based tools to help them survive and thrive. Their book, the DNA of Engagement, is out October 17th. We'll show you how you can do it too. David and Sarah-Jane, welcome to the show and thank you for spending some time with us today.

Speaker 2:

Thank you so much, tim. That's a really lovely introduction, thank you.

Speaker 1:

Well, I've been looking forward to this. You know, your system is really a game changer for public speakers and business leaders.

Speaker 2:

Thank you, tim. Thank you, tim. I mean it's lovely to hear the feedback that you've given us already and it's lovely to hear what we're hearing from people, because we're using it with clients already. It comes out October 17th on Amazon, but we're using it already with clients and it's just great to hear people saying that it is a system that works for them, so thanks.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's an exciting time for you guys right now. Like you said, you're already using it with your workshops and your business partners coming out here in a couple of weeks Yep, you're doing a book tour. How much fun is it to be you guys right now, and are you actually able to sit?

Speaker 3:

back and enjoy it.

Speaker 2:

Well, it is tiring. It is tiring. It's a really interesting process, this whole book writing thing, because we were sort of the people who never wanted to write a book, because you know who needs another business book? And there was a strange set of circumstances that came about, which which led to us writing the book. And there's the writing, and then the whole lead up to the marketing is is uh, wow, you sign up for you. Just not quite 100, sure, what you have signed up for, which is it's, like sarah jane said, it's both exciting, but it's really it's. Yeah, you gotta gotta have your game face.

Speaker 3:

And we're not as young as we used to be.

Speaker 2:

We're not as young. We always think we're like Statter and Waldorf and the Muppets.

Speaker 1:

What's going to happen, though, is when it goes on sale on October 17th. Understand, this doesn't stop.

Speaker 3:

No, you have to keep?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, absolutely. You're going to be doing this for a long time.

Speaker 2:

Well, fun have to keep. Yeah, absolutely, you're going to be doing this for a long time. Well, funnily enough, the week after the week after launch, we've got two trips booked and we're going to Zurich in Switzerland to to see a few people who were, and then we're going to Dublin at the end of the week. So that could be a that could be. So you say, yeah, you're absolutely right. So I mean, it's, I think, sort of a good. Well, actually, a previous guest of yours, chris Fenning, who you had on the show, I was asking him about this and he said you know, David, about 30% of your time is you know, we're going to become booksellers for the rest of our lives For the rest of your lives.

Speaker 1:

Yes, it's never going to stop.

Speaker 3:

No, the overarching emotion, though, is excitement. I think I mean A we're really proud of ourselves because we've actually managed to get this out, but also it's exciting. It's really exciting. It's exciting seeing the differences making for people, and already you know, we've run workshops recently and people are they really go with it, they run with it and they can see how it can completely change the way in which they drive that collaboration in business and the engagement, and that's exactly what we wrote it for, really, yeah, and actually for your audience, tim, I mean that's an interesting one as well, because we work at a pretty senior level here in the UK and in Europe.

Speaker 2:

but there are various things and one of the reasons we did it is how do we help younger people, sort of like in their 20s up to their 30s, who are maybe making that transition from education into the workplace or getting their I'm going to say their first leadership role? But one of the things we talk about in the book is the fact that everyone is a leader at different points in their lives, because you know you might be, you might be leading a, you know a, you know a fortune 500, but you might also be leading your family on the decision about where you were all going to go on holiday during the summer. So I mean, it's a we all take. We all take leadership roles at different points in our lives and you know, seeing the way that the, the DNA of engagement, is really helping in that is is, is is thrilling actually.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and especially, you know if it's target, if we, if we start, you know targeting, you know the, the younger generations, the college age and young professionals. We could save them 40 years of heartburn Just learning how to interact and talk to people To move things forward.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely, it's about bringing people together.

Speaker 3:

It's about seeking that collaboration, I think and even if you're talking upwards, you're talking to somebody more senior it's having that courage to allow yourself to be on that level with them, within that conversation, and be able to take part in it and literally feel that you're collaborating within a conversation, rather than just following on, yes, exactly, or dictating, is you know, other work. So that's really the fundamentals of it needed, I think. So much in this world today where decisions seem to be made quite quickly or often without real understanding about what your audience really needs.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, right, or without thinking about the end user in mind, or really how you're building connections with the people that you're communicating with to do that.

Speaker 2:

But our name, the Story Spotters, was very carefully chosen because if you go on LinkedIn, you can throw a stick at LinkedIn and there's a million storytellers out there. But I mean, what we're very interested in is how people A spot their own stories. But to Sarah Jane's point about collaboration how do you get people to co-author and spot the stories which are going to drive things forward, which could be on a domestic, family level, or it could be on a team level or a corporation level? One of the quotes well, the quote we start the book with is by Howard Schultz, when he was I think it was when he was CEO at Starbucks saying that if you don't get people engaged this is me misquoting him, but the gist of the quote is if you don't get people engaged this is me misquoting him, but the gist of the quote is if you don't get people engaged in the future strategy and get them to co-author that strategy, then you're going to lose great people. So how do you engage people and get them to co-author the story for the future?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and if you think about that whole idea there that started, the idea of going and grabbing a coffee and talking and and and talking about, you know, the, the, the partnerships or collaborations or friendships or whatever to move that forward and that you know, knowing that that really kind of makes sense and and and builds that synergy I.

Speaker 2:

I think you're right. I, I mean, tim, you must find this in your work with students at Georgia State and stuff. I mean none of what we write about is rocket science. I mean it's how we manage to survive and thrive as a species, because we form groups and we solve problems and we get on with stuff and we make life happen. But too often in those stressful situations which often corporations are under or families are under, or a situation where somebody is going for that big job they really want to get to, then all of the things that make us human beings, that ability to connect and really work together, they just fly out the window, mainly because of stress or time constraints. So, so none of what we've written about is is is exactly. No, it's not like we've reinvented the wheel, we just. We just pointed to where the wheel is.

Speaker 1:

Yes, yes, it's right over here it's here it's the wheel. So you know, with your, you with your gift of of acting, and you knew you could help others. But was there an aha moment where you realized that you know that you could use your, your gift of acting and story spotting to be able to help others?

Speaker 3:

That's yours, yeah, well, that, I think that was many, many moons ago. And, uh, I, uh, we, I, I, we, I, we have a son, and after I he was about three I think and I thought I can't, I can't do this. I was offered a tour, a play that I to tour around the country and I thought I can't do it because I didn't want to have that worry of having somebody else looking after him and maybe hiring a nanny or having him in the dressing room. I mean, it was just I'd been in too many situations where other actresses that I'd been working with had had that sort of difficulty. It was never quite knowing, and if your child gets sick, and then, oh my gosh.

Speaker 3:

So I decided then that I would try and use my ability, what I knew, which was, in a way, how to connect with people and all those sorts of things. And it was at the time in London really, when actors were just beginning really to go into business in much more of a professional way to help people communicate and to help people. Initially it was, I guess it was doing presentations, but then it kind of expands out from that because it's it's basically the you know how you actually communicate and how you show up, basically, and so I started working in that field and loved it. I absolutely loved it. Very successful, yeah, and and and then it wasn't long, was it before you decided that?

Speaker 2:

well, yeah, I mean, I did I decide. Was I pushed? No, maybe you were pushed, no, I think. I think sarah jane actually actually sarah jane realized that I had a skill for it before I did. And then there was a set of circumstances. I dabbled a bit, but sort of in a less corporate fashion. I was teaching at a drama school and I created a course for business people. It was like a weekend course called your Voice is the Business and it was basically a voice course about how to use your voice. Well, but there was one exercise on storytelling that everyone remembered at the end of that course.

Speaker 2:

And a couple of years later, sarah Jane wasn't well and she had to drop out from what was a very, very big project for us as a family financially, in terms of what it was going to mean for us as a family and she rang up the person in charge of the project and said listen, I can't do this because I'm not well, I'm not going to be able to come and do the gig. And they I don't know the exact words, but it was something like this they said I imagine it was do you know anyone who could? And I saw her look at me and go. Yes, I think I do.

Speaker 2:

And suddenly I found myself on a plane to the middle of Europe, sort of talking to these people about. It was just after the time Enron collapsed, oh boy, yeah. So there was the whole Sarbanes-Oxley stuff that came in and the different regulations around controls and business, and I was going to help a team that were pitching to a massive insurer about some Sarbanes-Oxley compliance work Me, an actor, going there to this building. Anyway, I flew in there and during the morning I was listening to these men in suits say words that might have well been ancient Greek. I mean, I had literally not a clue what they were talking about.

Speaker 2:

And at about 10.30, I said listen, let's stop, have a coffee, let's see where we got to, let's have a break, clear our heads. And I ran to the toilet and I called Sarah Jane. I said get me out of here. This is a terrible mistake. I have no idea what these people are talking about. And she said well, if you don't know what they're talking about, they probably don't know what they're talking about either. So do what you always story about, what it's going to look and feel like working with them, and that will then earn them the right to talk about their facts and figures and everything and I went oh, I could do that. I went in there and I thought wow, if this is what the game's about, I can do storytelling with people.

Speaker 3:

Well, I think it's not quite that. They didn't know what they were talking about, it wasn't?

Speaker 1:

clear no, no.

Speaker 3:

But the clarity of the story around how they were going to present it to that particular client wasn't clear.

Speaker 2:

Well, actually that's an interesting point. So one of the things we talk about in the book is the concept of same-paging. You can talk in facts you know this, deb but you can talk in facts and you talk in facts and everybody hears those facts and they turn them into a story of what it's going to look like to them. So I mean, I take your point, but I would imagine that even within that team, until they told the story together about what it's going to look like, they could be a different interpretation. I completely agree.

Speaker 2:

Story puts people on the same page, which is, you know, everyone leaves going. I get it now. What's it going to look like working with you? And I think that's a really important point for any of your listeners who may be sort of breaking into the world of work or sort of going for that promotion what's it going to look and feel like working with you? And story you can't out-fact a story. Stories exist in people's heads. Your CV, your resume isn't going to out-fact that story. You've got to tell the story of what it's going to look and feel like working with you.

Speaker 1:

And so, for young people, I'm working with a David. I told you this when we talked before. I'm working with a lady. She's incredibly smart and she, she's older older than my normal audience, let's just put it this way and she has such trouble telling stories, telling her story. And you know when I, when I translate this into you, know working with my my, you know working with my students and the other people I'm coaching, why do they have such trouble telling their own story or seeing things as stories?

Speaker 3:

Do you want to take that People are? Let me see, there is that feeling. If they're going into a situation where they feel that they're a bit of an underdog because they're the ones that are having to impress somebody, that they go in with that kind of feel, then I think that it can lower one's confidence around how you talk about yourself, and so I think there's lots of second guessing about oh well, they won't be interested in that, or they won't be interested in this, or I've got to come over as a professional, or I've got to come over like I've got to make sure I show them that I know all these. But you see, to me I don't necessarily think that you have to do that. I think that you have to do that. I think what you have to do is show them who you are, who you are by the way in which you, by the way in which you explain how you've solved problems before, or whatever. Whatever is relevant to the conversation. It is it's making it relevant to how or what you have.

Speaker 3:

If you're going in for an interview or something. What interests you about, why you quite like to work in this kind of situation? Ask questions as the interviewee. Ask questions. You're not and I think people genuinely think that it's a kind of like often when they go into interviews. I think it's a one way thing that they have to impress in order that somebody. But actually if you try to impress, I think often you, your real, the real personality goes and you start and it's, it's somebody else that's talking, it's somebody you think that they want to listen to instead of the real you.

Speaker 2:

I think what I'd add to that as well, Tim, is that people sort of think they get told you should tell a story, but no one wants to hear your story unless there's a point in the story. So, actually being very clear about what is it you're trying to prove here Within the book, we talk about a thing called the PREC structure, which stands for point, reason, example takeaway and for the person you're talking about. I mean, there is an example in the book which we've talked about, about somebody who we did work with, who they were going for a big interview, and the point they wanted to make was that they were a self-starter, they were very happy to get their hands dirty, they really liked solving complex problems. That was the point they made, and they actually put that up in front and said so, tell me a bit about you. Well, people tell me I'm self-starter, I like solving problems, I'm very happy to get my hands dirty. The R is then the reason, and the reason would be, from everything I've read about you, that's exactly what you're looking for.

Speaker 2:

She then went on to tell the story about how she basically renovated her house totally by using YouTube videos, and she'd done the plumbing and the plastering and the wiring and everything like that. And she told me afterwards that the panel that was, and then the takeaway was basically just to reiterate and say so listen, I mean, that's basically who I am and I think it's what you're looking for. She told me afterwards that the panel in an hour had barely asked her about anything to do with work or her business case for getting the job, because they were too interested in plumbing and plastering and wiring. So that's what they remembered oh, the woman who did the YouTube video. So as long as your story has a very clear point, which is probably something that is going to solve somebody else's problems or needs, then it ties in very much to Sarah Jane saying people think I shouldn't tell my story because it's arrogant.

Speaker 3:

But if you're telling your story to serve to help somebody else's help them overcome a problem or make a decision they're having a problem making, then your story serves a huge it does, and I think as well that it shows, whoever you're speaking to so much more of your personality and so much more of what you're made of than if you just if you sort of stick to the CV way of answering.

Speaker 2:

I think the word show is perfect. Show don't tell, isn't it?

Speaker 3:

It completely is yeah.

Speaker 1:

And it builds that interpersonal connection right.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1:

It makes you a real person and not an employee or an applicant. You're David. You're Sarah Jane, applicant you're. You're david. You're sarah jane, you're yeah right, absolutely, and it's.

Speaker 2:

You know, there's a. There's a friend of ours called david hutchins who is in in smyrna and in tennessee, I think it is, and then in in he's a. He's very big in the story world and he talks about when he's working with, when he's working with organizations. He talks about geographical feedback and so the geography of feedback in storytelling. One of the geographies is what do you infer about the person through what it is they're telling? And if you're telling your own story then, as Sarah Jane says, you can just see it, you can see them light up and you can actually see the audience leaning in and connecting. And, as I said, this panel were very interested in plumbing and plastering and not too interested in accounting for an hour.

Speaker 1:

So let's take this a step further, because you talk a lot about the art, craft and science of a story. What does that actually mean, and can you give us an example when you walk through that kind of process? Lot about, you know the art, craft and science of a story. What does that actually mean? And and can you give us an example when you walk through that, that kind of process?

Speaker 2:

I'll do the boring bit, I'll do the science. And we don't. We don't. You know there's a lot of. There's a sorry, anybody's a scientist out there, but I mean it's. You know there's a lot of stuff about. There's a lot of stuff you can read about the neuroscience of the brain. Of course, that's what neuroscience is and the way that story affects the brain and the way it lights up different areas of the brain and the way that we need to connect, and there are things like slightly outdated theory on triune brain theory about how we need to connect to people. We need to connect to people, so there is a scientific basis for why to tell a story, but that doesn't tell you how to tell a story, which is really what to do with the art and the craft of it, isn't it? I don't know if you've got any stuff on the art and craft. The art and craft, yeah, well, the crafting I mean. Okay.

Speaker 3:

Which fit. Do you want? Here's the book.

Speaker 2:

I don't. The craft is putting his story together and the art is then telling it. I mean, I don't know.

Speaker 3:

I mean, I think that do you want me to go into the-.

Speaker 2:

You go where you want. When have I ever been able to stop you?

Speaker 3:

I think the thing about story is that you've got to bring the whoever is listening. You've got to bring them into their world. They have to be able to see it, and there's the classic things that anchor it. First of all, it's really important. You've got to earn the right to tell a story. So you have to make a point, you have to say whatever this is is relevant in the conversation, and then you can say oh, I remember when, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 3:

And then I think that various things for stories are a time, so that people can anchor it in their heads as soon as you can, last September or yesterday morning, or whatever it might be. So there's some kind of connection in that way. And then you need a place as well, so that somebody, you say a time or a place, what happens is that people will have their. They might not.

Speaker 3:

If you say I was in the kitchen, everybody has a kind of image of a kitchen, and so what happens is that the other person's mind is being used, because it's a natural thing for us to want to create that picture in our own heads in order to understand. So, time and place, and then I think dialogue is important in it. So and I remember saying to the old lady on the street and then you actually do some verbatim and you've got character an old lady on the street. And then you actually do some verbatim and you've got character an old lady on the street. I don't know quite what story I'm telling here, but I'm in the kitchen, but I'm fascinated.

Speaker 2:

It's an old lady on the street.

Speaker 3:

She's not there now. I mean just an ornery story of going to the shops. Yesterday I went to the shops and I was trying to find some tomatoes in the supermarket and there were absolutely no tomatoes to be had at all. So I thought, well, I'll have to make something else for supper or whatever. And just as I was leaving the supermarket, literally this chap came in through the supermarket doors and he had about eight crates of tomatoes on his shopping trolley and so I said, right, are you selling those? And he said yes. So I went in and I got my tomatoes. I was able to get my tomatoes. That is the most mundane, boring type of story.

Speaker 2:

For somebody who needs a tomato it's pretty important.

Speaker 3:

But the interesting thing is that you still have-.

Speaker 2:

They say tomato.

Speaker 3:

Oh sorry.

Speaker 1:

No, but tomatoes, potatoes whatever we're good. If it's food, I can figure it out. We're there.

Speaker 2:

We're there with you.

Speaker 3:

It's sort of a deliberately boring story because of the bit it lights up the brain. It lights up the brain because immediately you have an image of a supermarket, you have an image with somebody with a trolley, you have an image of tomatoes. That's what happens. It makes the brain. We can't have images of sort of concepts.

Speaker 2:

It's much more difficult but specific like that, which is why story works and, to quote hamilton, the musical, it puts you in the room where it happens, which is which I think really it's very important because people relate to it and they remember we're fascinated by humans, in, in, in interacting with each other, which is what the dialogue bit is. But it's, um, I mean, the reason and, structurally so, the craft of it. I mean, you know, we call this the dna, and the dna stands for dream nightmare action, in this case, not deoxyribonucleic acid. I mean, it's a dream nightmare action and it's the reason why we called it. That is because we were. We suddenly thought this is a pattern, that we live our lives the whole time. Well, it happened literally 20 minutes ago, half an hour ago, when we were on this. We had this dream we're going to talk to Tim on this podcast and it's going to be really, really lovely and it's going to be very simple. I've tested everything. That was my dream. It's going to go great. We'll have a really nice time.

Speaker 2:

Nightmare, the volume didn't work and so we're going, tim, what are you saying? And the nightmare that got in the way of the dream was that, and so the action was desperately trying to figure out how to sort this out until guess what Volume switched, so I should turn that up. So this pattern of dream nightmare action is the story that we live in our lives and it recurs right throughout our lives on a daily, hourly, minute basis, whatever it is. And to tell a story to somebody, to Sarah Jane's point of earning the right to tell this job, and so to say, listen, I was reading your literature and what you were doing with the business.

Speaker 2:

It looks like you're really looking for some sort of people who are real self-starters, who really like solving problems, and so she's connected to their dream. She's telling her story. She will throw in some nightmares in there of the things that she had to overcome in order to be able to do what she does, because all good stories are about change. They're all about sort of overcoming something in order to become something else. Otherwise it's just a string of facts again. And so this dream nightmare action connect to somebody's dreams, then tell the story about the actions you took that overcame the nightmare in order to achieve that dream, and it's a very powerful model.

Speaker 1:

It really is.

Speaker 3:

It's what we do naturally all the time in the pub, in a cafe, wherever we are in a bar with friends, we're constantly telling stories about what's happened to us, and other people's stories trigger you. Telling a story that is what makes a lot of our conversation, naturally conversation, and that is what binds us, that's what helps us know more about each other and connect with each other, etc. And yet somehow what happens in business? We tend to want to talk in a completely different way, which is totally to professional way, which is totally unnatural, and so I think what this dna of engagement is about really is bringing the human into business, basically into the way that we see what being professional is all about, and I think by doing that it gives people a competitive advantage.

Speaker 2:

There's not enough people are doing that.

Speaker 1:

Right and if I'm wrong. That's where you all really talk about how the DNA builds trust, drives engagement and influences change.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, I mean the trust word is really big for us actually, because too often what happens is people they go in and they talk about the problem, and then people without earning the right. Back to Sarah Jane's point about earning the permission. You build the trust. You earn the permission by connecting to somebody else and saying, basically, that you've understood them.

Speaker 2:

What we all want as human beings is to feel that we've been heard and understood and so to sort of say listen, I've heard what your dreams are here and what you're trying to achieve with what you're doing, and that will be great when that all works. But this is what could get in the way of it. So let me tell you about how I can, you know, the butt be the nightmare. I mean we always say a good story needs a good kick in the butt. So you know, get that butt in there and say, but this could get in the way of it. So let's talk about how you know what I could do could actually help you, and that's the action bit. So you've got that dream. You earn the trust by listening and connecting and showing that you've understood somebody's dream, by listening and connecting and showing that you've understood somebody's dream.

Speaker 3:

I think really showing that you understand is probably the most important thing. That's the foundation of communication really.

Speaker 2:

It was one of.

Speaker 3:

Stephen Covey's seven laws. Seek to understand yeah, seek to understand, I think is so important, and it's also seek to be understood as well. Telling a story about a situation can be quite short Explaining how you feel about something. Within that you put the emotional side to a story. It's much easier to do that Because you can say, if you're telling a small example about how you've enjoyed doing something before, you can say you know, I really, really loved doing that because that particular job, I knew that that was what I wanted to. You know you can. You can. You can put your own feelings and emotion and and I think that that gives that, gives the person that you're speaking to a real understanding about how much you care.

Speaker 3:

And if we because I think that so many in business everybody's working, so it's so quick, there's lots of um, you know, deadlines, all that kind of thing and often communication can fall down because people, people wrap out orders or they're very um, they're very sharp with with what is necessary to do and you and and they don't really show how much they care. They care about the outcome and they care about the fact that you are comfortable doing whatever they've asked, and I think that this is a story or kind of using story techniques can really help that and smooth that communication well, so it's good leadership, basically.

Speaker 2:

There's a wonderful ex-client of ours who is now a friend. I mean, I have a habit of making clients into friends, which is quite nice. Actually, she's called Angela Brav and she worked for a big hotel, global hotel group. She now lives in Atlanta in Georgia, and I think she's doing something with the city of Jacksonville down in Florida, helping the regeneration of different buildings within Jacksonville.

Speaker 2:

One of the things that she said that we actually quote in the book was one of the tasks that she really thought was most important was the ability to be able to read the temperature of the room and then change the temperature of the room. And when you read the temperature of the room, that means that you've listened, you've heard, you've understood. And then changing the temperature of the room is about people. When you leave, people think, oh, something happened there, didn't it. And that's because of the stories you tell, the emotion you bring to your stories, the way you tell those stories, that people think something happened there, didn't it, and I think it's an act of bravery to do that. But boy oh boy, it works.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and that's a really good point. I, that's a. That's a really good point is that, as you're saying, that I'm thinking to myself and it takes a special person to be able to be emotionally intelligent enough to be so that, you know, everybody understands. Oh, wow, this person really is listening, this person really does care and there really is going to be some change or some some movement forward, whatever that needs to be I mean that's why I mean with, with within the book.

Speaker 2:

I mean, you know, it's divided into three parts, really. There's the, the structure of the narrative. The first third is about how you construct the DNA narrative, which keeps people on track with your message. Then it's about how you is, the way that you listen to other people's stories and draw them out of you, because that does you know, it's a. It's a, that's a gift. I mean to actually give people the time and the space where they feel that they can tell you their story and that you wanted to do it and you've been changed by. That is a. That's, that's a real act of human connection.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, that's all I mean, that's, and that's what this can do.

Speaker 1:

If, if you, if you're actually open to doing it right, yeah, open to to, to listening in and and and being vulnerable. You know, as an example, you know, I'm teaching, teaching a class, I'm teaching a class, I'm teaching a class this semester that I've never taught before. And I'm not it's not that I'm not comfortable teaching, I'm just not, you know, necessarily sure that that what I'm doing is teaching what I'm supposed to be teaching. But when I go in and I and I talk to them and I say, okay, you know, this is, this is what we're doing, and I and we're we're actually talking about presenting and telling stories, and I'm asking them, I said you know, what is it that I am doing?

Speaker 1:

That's connecting with you. And they start listing things off and I say, okay, now, if you see that I'm doing that, when you start talking to people, you have to find your, your style and how you connect with those people, using this framework, and start and start and start doing that in everything that you do. And it's not going to happen overnight, but you have to start practicing it and start doing these things for it to take hold.

Speaker 2:

I think I love that. I mean because it's, I mean it's this is a human thing that we're talking about. We keep saying that, don't we? I mean, there are, you know how to win friends and influence people.

Speaker 2:

Stephen Covey, There've been books written about this throughout the ages, but I mean it isn't a cookie cutter one plus one equals two. I mean there are steps you can take and indeed we've written about it, but it has to be authentic to you and I think that word you know it has to be authentic to you, and I think that word you know how do you make that your own? And I think that word of vulnerability that you use there, Tim, is very well said, because I think that's you know, the daring to. You know, we were both actors for many years, as you said right at the beginning, said right at the beginning, and I, I, I always remember one of my, my teachers saying just before we left, and he said believe you're the best, but believe it, believe it sensibly, and I thought, oh, that's great. I mean it's just like you've got to have confidence in what you do, but never forget you've got stuff to learn. I mean the day that you, the day you forget that you're done. That's the end of game. End of story.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I don't want to give the book away because I want people to buy the book. I want people to buy the book too.

Speaker 2:

Okay, can we tell you why we want people to buy the book, tim? Can we actually mention that? Because we want people to buy the book, because we want people to buy the book. But we got some really exciting news, which is there's another client stroke friend who lives in Switzerland and she is the CEO of a foundation called Be that Girl, which is an organization that funds NGOs, helping women, predominantly in sub-Saharan Africa, lead more self-determined lives really.

Speaker 2:

And there's one particular NGO in Rwanda called Generation Rise who have a number of scholars in tertiary education who are then moving into the world of work and taking up their first leadership roles, getting their first jobs really going back into their communities. And what we've agreed with Otadia, who's the CEO of Be that Girl, is that for every verified Amazon review we get in our first week of sales, we're going to donate an hour of coaching time to those scholars at Generation Rise. So I mean, you know, apart from anything, you can buy it for 99 cents on Kindle in the first week and you'll send us out for an hour to coach these young women. So that's the thing is, we make a living from storytelling, but there's also a. I think we've both got to stay generalized. We want to give something back as well, definitely.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think we again this is just Tim talking here I think we have a responsibility to, to, to be able to give back and to help people. You know, not necessarily change a lot in life, but but help them improve or get better, or in in. In this case, you're doing really, really good and important work thank you.

Speaker 2:

It's an interesting one, isn't it? Because I mean, I mean we could get very philosophical about the whole thing. But you, you know, I know I mean our son is sort of like at the back end, was just before the whole sort of smartphone and everyone had had a um, you know, an ipad and stuff like that, and everyone was on x or facebook or whatever it was, and so he he he's grown into that. But there is a generation now that has grown up with it and you know, I'm always surprised when people say I was just talking to such and such and no, they weren't, they were on whatsapp or telegram or something. I mean it's you know, so to so to actually sort of remind people the work that you're doing and the work that we're doing is, you know, these are human skills which, if we're not careful, they will. The rise of AI and all of those sorts of things. The thing that will make us keep us relevant as human beings is maintaining and developing those very human skills of connection.

Speaker 1:

I was again. I was just talking about this. We didn't have cell phones. Growing up when I was a kid, there was no cell phones, there was no pagers. There was the only phone that you had was the landline. I remember having to, you know, put your finger in and do the number and if you messed up you had to start all over. You get to the last time you messed up.

Speaker 3:

You have to start all over again and do the number and if you, messed up, you had to start all over.

Speaker 1:

You get to the last time you messed up, you have to start all over again. And when you wanted to talk to somebody, you actually had to talk to them. Yeah, and now, and you know, and I catch myself sometimes too, saying I talk to somebody when I just send them a text and I say no, you know.

Speaker 1:

I text them. They said and, and there's so much that gets lost in this digital communication. You know tone, inflection, attitude, facial expressions, and so we, we don't know what. We don't truly know what. What is meant when we, when we're communicating that in that manner and it's so important to have that, that face-to-face, or that, that interpersonal connection, to truly learn and understand from other people.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, everything's fast now, isn't it? It's fast food. We don't sit down and have meals together. We don't sit around and share those stories. I mean it's, it's, it's. And, as a result to your point there, I mean it's it. Everything is everything is therefore open to interpretation and, again, people are telling their own story about what it is they hear, rather than really knowing what the true story is. It's, I mean it's. You know we, at the end of the book, we talk about the ethics of storytelling and there's a, you know, just about sort of like really thinking, because these are powerful tools, and you know very powerful tools, and you know we have to be very clear about why we're doing what we're doing, and are we doing it for the good or are we sort of trying to, you know, manipulate in some shape or form? So I mean it's, it's a, it's a very human and very powerful set of skills we're talking about here. They're not that, you know, they always get called the soft skills, that's right, yeah, no, and it's.

Speaker 1:

You know, in the book you tell a story about, about a nightmare scenario when you're cooking a brisket and and things like that are? They transcend continents, right? I knew exactly what you were talking about. I knew exactly myself. I've been there. I've been there, I've done that, I'm sure your brisket's very good you know people are coming over. They're going to be here soon. What are we going to do? I know.

Speaker 2:

That's the nightmare. What do?

Speaker 1:

I do it is what are you going to do? And I'm not going to tell the solution, but it was perfect. It turned out well, of course it did, and there's a number of great stories in the book, a number of them, and that one stands out. And again, I don't want to give the book away, but the theme of Jaws is perfect and I actually used that last night when I was talking to my wife. Yeah, we were talking about the end, but therefore, and I said, if Brody had just done that, jaws would have been five minutes in and out.

Speaker 1:

Yeah yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

We love that Steven Spielberg would be a janitor.

Speaker 1:

Exactly. And then the other story that really stood out is the story about George the rugby official. And again, I don't want to give these stories away, but I mean, yeah, I come from a sport background, so that was another one that I'm really leaning into and I played rugby and I was like, yeah, I know there's that connection. Now I understand that you can't put all the good stories in the book right, you can't know, it'd be a very long book.

Speaker 1:

Exactly. What are some other ones that were on the list but didn't quite make the cut corporations who are trying to pitch for work.

Speaker 2:

So it might be one of the big four pitching for an audit for a global client or a consultancy firm trying to win some work. And, of course, that's a lot of fact-based, and so our job really is to help them get those facts into context and find the stories that bring the facts to life. And one of the things that we often talk about is what's the thing you're going to leave behind in the room, and you know what's the, what's the last thing you're going to say that's going to make people remember you and um, I was working with a with, with, with uh uh, uh uh team in South Africa who were pitching to work with a big bank and, uh, the, the lead partner who was on this thing. They said listen, is there anything you want to say before you leave the room? And we worked on this story because he told it to me. I said this is a brilliant story and he said basically, it's a story about when he was in London and he went to German Street, which is where all of the big tailor-made suits get made and everything, and he went in there and he'd ordered these suits and he went up to the counter to pay for them and he handed over his credit card and the machine just started smoking. He was completely out. I mean, he was out of money. And he was really embarrassing because he was in a very high class establishment and he was a man of means. And so, hang on, what do you mean? My credit card isn't working.

Speaker 2:

And so he rang up the office in South Africa and he said to me listen, I'm in this terrible situation. I'm trying to pay for these suits and my credit card. I must have maxed it out because I mean, we've been traveling a lot and I just maybe haven't paid in enough already to clear it. And the woman was very calm and she said ah, yes, I understand, sir, yeah, yeah, listen, how much do you need? And he said well, about 5,000 pounds would cover it. And he said when would you be back in Johannesburg? He said I'll be back next week. Listen, just sort it out then That'll be absolutely fine.

Speaker 2:

And he told this story and it went through and he gave his credit card over and it was paid and everything. And he told that story and then at the end he said you know what really impressed me about that woman who worked for you, because it was the credit card of the bank that he was pitching to work with. He said I just love the way that she listened to me and she was just really pragmatic and she wanted to solve the problems. What I want to give to you when I'm working with you Thanks very much. We look forward to the decision and a little.

Speaker 2:

You know, about a week later they rang up and said all right, let's talk fees, and they ended up getting the piece of work. But it was just a really personal. We've all been in a situation, maybe not buying high end suits, but we've all been thinking where am I going to get the money from this? And suddenly something happens. It's a problem that's overcome and it's just a story which I really, when I heard him tell me that one, I thought you got to use that.

Speaker 1:

You got to use it and you don't really see that kind of service all the time either. So to see that it was seen and acknowledged and appreciated Exactly right.

Speaker 2:

And if he just left and said, if they'd said, listen, is there anything you want to end on? He said, yes, I want to listen to you and serve you and solve your problems pragmatically.

Speaker 1:

That's a list.

Speaker 2:

Who's going to remember that? But putting those skills, those values, those behaviors into a story, especially one that he'd observed their people doing, made it really powerful. I'm not saying it won the pitch, but it certainly helped.

Speaker 1:

I'm sure it helped. Sure it helped. Yeah, so is there anything else that we haven't talked about today that you think our listeners should know about?

Speaker 2:

When are we coming for your brisket, tim oh boy?

Speaker 1:

Honestly, the best time for that is probably May or June.

Speaker 2:

Okay, it's a date. It's going in the diary, straight off the calendar. I'm totally not allowed to say diary. A friend of mine, who actually a guy called John Cleck, who's a retired Navy SEAL, he always laughs when I say he writes at the beginning of the book. He um, whenever I say I'll put something in the diary, he says what are you a 15 year old girl?

Speaker 1:

He said it's a calendar, and that's what a SEAL would say.

Speaker 2:

Yes, exactly Right. As he would say yes, exactly right. He's a very funny man. He's also a stand-up comedian. He's a great guy. He wrote a little foreword for us, didn't he? Yeah, and when I read the foreword I said Sean, am I seriously allowed to put this in the book? He said, yeah, because I mean it. It's what I said.

Speaker 3:

I said, if I put that in, I'm going to have to get Bradley Cooper to play me. If this book gets optioned, bradley Cooper's going to have to play me because you make me sound a lot better than I am, I think. Going back to the sort of message I think that I want to reiterate, really for the people that will be listening to this is that when you go out into the world of work and you're interviewing and deciding where you want to go, and interviews can be really I think they can be horrible, really. I mean, it's the lead up to an interview, isn't it? That is often the worst. And you're thinking, oh, you know, what do I say? And I think that one of the worst. And you're thinking, oh, what do I say?

Speaker 3:

And I think that one of the most important things is really think about why you want to do whatever you're going up. What is the job that you're doing? Why do you want to do it? And think about emotionally why do you want to do it? What does it mean to you? And then think about when you're thinking about that is there a story that you think that will support that?

Speaker 2:

Demonstrate your behaviors.

Speaker 3:

Yes, exactly Because I think people come out of university or whatever and they've got all their qualifications and everything. But what is by telling a story about something? That shows your values, yeah, yes. So that, I would think, is probably you know.

Speaker 2:

It creates that psychological safety and intimacy that people feel they've got to know you. It's back to your worded vulnerability, tim. Don't be afraid to give your experience, as long as your experience is proving the point that you are there to serve. You are there to serve and to help, yeah.

Speaker 1:

And I think we have to do a better job in helping young people and young professionals getting to that point and teaching them how to that point and teaching them how to figure out who they are and what their values are and what qualities that they have and what they want to be. It's just my opinion and experience that right now young people and young professionals haven't really given that a lot of thought. Yeah, they just kind of okay. You know, I, I grew up, I go to school, you know, go to here, you go to high school, then you go to college and then you get a job, but we don't really do a whole lot to help them figure out who they are and what they really think, yeah, and life, life just sort of Happens to people, but you can be a bit more intentional about it, right?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

And I think this is a great way to do that. Yeah, you know, with the DNA of engagement, because you do have to start thinking about other things and how to communicate, you know, in a way that builds that trust and engagement.

Speaker 2:

Exactly and engagement, so exactly. You start by thinking about the other person and their dreams and then connect what you do to to, to help him insult the nightmares through the actions that you take, and it's uh, yeah, no, we're, we're, we're loving how it's, it's, it's being received and you know the work that you're doing. Tim is, is is exactly in the, in the same area.

Speaker 1:

And I think it's it's important work. Yeah, I appreciate that, and I can't tell you how much I appreciate you all spending some time with me this morning. I know this is probably one of the busiest times of your life and I'm so excited for you. It's. I follow you. Yeah, I, low-key, follow you. This is what the kids call it these days. I, low-key, follow you, you know, on. You know on LinkedIn, and and and those types of things, and I I am so excited for you because this is a great time and I hope that you know you can take some time to enjoy this, even though as as busy as you are, because it's it's it's a great accomplishment and and what you're, what you're talking about, what you're doing is is going to change people's lives thank you so much, tip.

Speaker 2:

Really, Really, really appreciate it and I have to say this has been a I don't know how long we've been talking for, but this has felt like a bit of a holiday, you know, to be able to spend some time and just swap some stories with you.

Speaker 1:

Well, david, not many people would say that trust me.

Speaker 2:

Spending time with Tim is not necessary.

Speaker 2:

You had me a brisket, tim, you had me a brisket, so so so where can people find you and where can they buy the book? The book will be out on Amazon, on, you know, on on all out in Amazon in all countries, on October the 17th, thursday, october the 17th. It's, it's live. They can, you could, already we, I mean we, we are the story spotters at the story spotterscom. The book has its website already, um, which is called the dna of engagementcom, so you can find out more about the book there. And then probably the best place to get in touch with both of us is on linkedin. I mean, please do follow us there or reach out and connect with us, because we, we, we, we love meeting new people and you share a lot of great information on LinkedIn as well.

Speaker 1:

So I want people to understand that I mean, it's not just necessarily about the book, but some of the other information that you're sharing, with some of the things that other people are doing as well, because, again, you know that's what we do. You know we help other people. It's amazing, exactly Some of the you know, some of the things that you're sharing and and just you know, for our listeners, just so that you understand. You know we got connected, you and I got connected through through, like you say, Chris Venning, who isn't you know what we do isn't rocket science, is an actual rocket scientist. Yes, he is, which is great, but, again, you know you can find so much good information by following. You know different people, and Dave and Sarah-Jane, you know you are some of the best sharers of information that I've seen in a long time.

Speaker 2:

Thank you, tim. Thank you Really. Yeah, no, thank you. That's all I have to say.

Speaker 1:

Well, good, thanks so much for spending some time with us and and I'll obviously be in touch and we'll talk to you soon thanks, tim, and good luck to everyone out there. Yes, bye, bye, bye be sure to visit speaking with confidence podcast to join a growing community and register for the formula for public speaking course. Always remember your voice has the power to change the world. We'll talk to you next time, take care.

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Tim Newman

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